I'm really bored, can someone start a heated debate please

[Otta]

Come on, breast vs bottle, Gina Ford, breast feeding etiquette in public, kids in pubs, kids on buses.

Come on, I need entertainment, lets have a ruck!

[Saffron]

meh... it's been done. there must be something "new" out there?

[Otta]

Abandoning your child on the steps of the police station when you can't be arsed anymore.

Discuss.

[treehugger]

I don't even know where the nearest police station is any more. I hear LL PS is beign turned into a Waitrose.

[Saffron]

Don't some places legally allow you to 'abandon' your baby in a babyhatch? Not legal in the UK. The US has safe-haven laws for infant abandonment, but as one couple discovered some years ago, these laws do not extend to abandoning your teenagers. (But hey it's the thought that counts anyway, right?)

More recently these parents got in serious trouble for trying to ditch their 6-yo. http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Couple-Tried-to-Abandon-6-Year-Old-at-Police-Station-Cops-116735219.html But, oh they said they just wanted to "teach her a lesson". Hmmm.

[Saffron]

treehugger Wrote:

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> I don't even know where the nearest police station

> is any more. I hear LL PS is beign turned into a

> Waitrose.

Ooo, will they let you abandon children there? Maybe they'd give you a discount on groceries, like a trade-in scheme?

[canela]

Well, something has been bugging me for a while....

Question: Why is British society so not child-friendly?

And I'm not talking about whether or note there is a baby change facility. I'm talking about the general vibe that children are "tolerated" if they sit still and behave, but not cherished unless they are your own. Now, I'm not one in favour of kids running riot in cafes either - which means that usually I don't take my kids anywhere other than the park, the woods etc. But just now and again we do have to venture out into society. So last weekend I had to go to return a skirt to a shop in ED (can't go during the week as working, and hubby works weekends, so they had to come). So, whilst I don't approve of dragging bored kids round shops, it should have taken 10 minutes and we would go to the swings on the way back. Cue extremely unfriendly, disapproving shop assistant, looking down her nose at hassled mother trying on a new skirt whilst trying also to keep kids from mucking about...and pretty much failing on all fronts. I left the shop almost in tears and vowing never ever again!

now, maybe I am just a sensitive soul, but it struck me as I trudged home that in other places in the world (I'm thinking of Spain, where mr canela is from and where I had little ones, and other Latin countries I've been to) that shop assistant would have smiled at the kids, and most likely talked and engaged them so that I could try that bloomin' skirt on! and she would have smiled at me too.

that's one little example, but every parent has their own story. not to mention all the posts on the EDF - my particular favourite being the people complaining about school children singing on the top of the bus in the morning!

so, yes, i usually keep my kids far and away from where they might cause offence. but my point is that surely it is sad that children are so unwelcome everywhere...

that controversial enough Otta?

[bluesuperted]

That's a good start Canela! As it stands I wholeheartedly agree with you and wish there was more societal tolerating, wow even cherishing, going on. It would make life so much more pleasant... I love going abroad where the culture is much more as you describe (pre-children I loved the family-friendly attitude in Spain, Italy and Greece and since having a baby experienced much more toleration in the US and Turkish Cyprus that at home..) there are amazing exceptions and I think on an individual level Brits do adore babies, but on a societal level even babies are seen as an inconvenience to many and liable to turn into, whisper, children!!

[Ole]

I was telling my mediterranean relatives that we have been invited to a wedding where children are not allowed, and they were very entertained by the notion. In the last 18 months we have been invited to five wedding so far where children not invited, and one of the weddings was of a couple who are very devoted Christians too, so go figure!

[Saila]

i keep seeing kids everywhere. Shops, cinema, parks, pubs.. schools ;)

personally i think it's the elderly that society shut away.

It feels like kids these days are the center of everything - relative

[Otta]

Saffron Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Don't some places legally allow you to 'abandon'

> your baby in a babyhatch? Not legal in the UK.

> The US has safe-haven laws for infant abandonment,

> but as one couple discovered some years ago, these

> laws do not extend to abandoning your teenagers.

> (But hey it's the thought that counts anyway,

> right?)

>

> More recently these parents got in serious trouble

> for trying to ditch their 6-yo.

> http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Couple-Tried-

> to-Abandon-6-Year-Old-at-Police-Station-Cops-11673

> 5219.html But, oh they said they just wanted to

> "teach her a lesson". Hmmm.

I believe this is still happens in Germany (if memory serves).

[Pickle]

I took baby Pickle to a playgroup this morning that we've been to a few times now and I love it. Generally I detest playgroups (mainly as I have older children and can't really be bothered spending time in a room with other peoples older children!), but this one is refreshing.

I was thinking about it on the way home - I enjoyed it because

- it was not pretentious in the slightest. No rice cakes, organic juice. Custard creams and sugary drinks.

- the few kids behaving inappropriately were disciplined

- it was cheap

- no puppets, structure, or adult intervention in terms of what the kids could do. Just lots of well loved toys and a nice big safe space where the kids could get on with it.

- the adults were friendly.

Interestingly, the majority of adults there were childminders. They are a very welcoming, down to earth bunch of ladies. I'm thick skinned and am at the point in my life where I don't really care whether people speak to me or not when I'm at groups with my baby, but this particular group is a refreshing exception to the norm in these parts.

Not really a heated debate topic, but my musings on life for today ;-)

[Otta]

Good work canela, although not really controversial, more sport on.

One reason Pizza Express is always packed is because the staff are usually lovely with kids, as are the gruff and sometimes scary looking blokes in your average kebab shop. When we took our then 9 month old daughter to Venezuella for a friend's wedding, and stayed with the family, they absolutely adored her, and there was no question of trying to keep her out of everyone's way.

In the UK, I think we live a generally too fast paced and stressfull lifestyle, and part of that means that we don't have the patience to deal with kids.

[Saffron]

Do unfriendly, stuck-up, non-helpful shop assistants really have anything to do with children though? Seriously, British shop assistants are infamous for being surly and snobbish. Hmm, admittedly if you have children in tow, then it can be all the more unpleasant. However I've generally found people more engaging since I've had my daugher. Children can be an 'ice breaker' with strangers. Maybe it's the British sense of reserve that keeps people from interacting or being more tolerant of children? Interestingly, the 'stiff up lip' has been recognised by some as a relatively recent phenomenon.

[oimissus]

well, it sounds like you just had a grumpy shop assistant there, canela, which is crap whatever your situation (try shopping in Peckham, we have a special level of miserable shop assistants all the time). I don't know why it is, hangover from the past (children seen and not heard) maybe, or living in a stupidly expensive, overcrowded city makes people less tolerant all round - there's a couple of possibilites. I completely agree that society's attitude to the elderly is far far worse than to children.

don't you find the fasmily room to be generally ruck-free - everyone's very nicely behaved, aren't they? Not like over in the General section, where it can get entertainingly punchy. If you posted (as someone did today) a question about toddler groups or something that's been covered before in General it would take 3 minutes for 10 people to pile in pointing out where the search function is, hasn't this been done a billion times before blah blah - over here everyone mildly mentions what groups they like until someone points the OP in the direction of ED Tots.

anyway - SAHP vs WOHP? Anyone?

[Saffron]

Otta Wrote:

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> Come on, breast vs bottle, Gina Ford, breast

> feeding etiquette in public, kids in pubs, kids on

> buses.

>

> Come on, I need entertainment, lets have a ruck!

You left out homeopathy, immunisations, food additives, and free schools.

[oimissus]

it's really difficult to have a proper ruck when there's a swear filter, I find.

[Otta]

"don't you find the fasmily room to be generally ruck-free"

For the most part yes (which is why I visit less often ;-)), but there have been some classic moments!

Regarding the elderly, I think the majority of people have respect for the elderly. It can however be grating when constantly told "it was better in my day, you don't know you were born!"... Okay, so I haven't survived a World War, sorry about that.

[Saffron]

Well, the easy living of our childhoods has come back to bit us in the collective bum with Austerity measures now anyway.

[midivydale]

Otta, if you are bored I have a poorly 11 month old you can borrow for a few hours:)

[WorkingMummy]

Ooo, recent controversial statements I have overheard, wanted to debate, but really couldn't (without interrupting a conversation between various different strangers) include:

What's the point in having kids if you (ie, the mother) are going to work full time/return to work within 6 months, etc etc.

Harrow (school) is worth every penny of advantage it is buying my son.

It's like X (the nanny) is the mum and she (the working mother) is the husband.

I would never let my child do that (re child acting out in store).

The rich don't deserve child benefit.

My daughter (3) didn't get into JAPS and I'm devastated.

(On woman's hour) Working mothers neglect their husbands: the new Gina Ford type guide that directs women how to tend their partners after children come along.

Hmmm, there are about a million more but not necessarily family related.

Men get less support at work to father, than women get to mother.

Don't know if any of that takes your fancy, Otta?

[Otta]

"The rich don't deserve child benefit. "

"deserve" is a poor choice of word, but they clearly don't need it, and so shouldn't get it when the country is basically skint.

[Chillaxed]

How about you all confess to how many times you've chosen your own convenience over the collective good e.g. let's send LO to nursery in a polo neck jumper and hope the staff don?t notice the chicken pox/impetigo/other infectious disease that LO has but is not unduly affected by?

[Saffron]

My mother used to send us all to school when we were ill, and I f*&?ing hated it. She also made me sit through a 2 hr church service with apendicitis. The guilt trip was legendary.

[WorkingMummy]

The indoctrination of children with religious ideas. Now that would be a ruck....