Ukraine situation

[malumbu]

It's not a term I use or particularly understand, but all parties were using it on the programme, and some said it could be leveled at Russia too.

Worth a listen in any case.

Nobody argued for not heating their houses.

[TheCat]

I suspect in this context, 'decadence' may not only refer to material or monetary posessions, but also to the fact that most of western population don't have to deal with a great deal of 'real' problems...i.e religious or ethnic persecution (I'm not talking about an -ism or a phobia, but actual persecution), or until recently not having to worry about pestilence or access to drinkable water etc)...so increasingly trivial problems are often manufactured...

I.e. it must all sound a bit ridiculous for people with actual bombs dropping on their heads to hear phrases like 'silence is violence', or that oxford students suffer 'violence' when they walk past a statue of Cecil Rhodes....

I'm not saying we shouldn't have those discussions, and Im not intending to start a debate on idenitarian politics. Just making the point, that us having the luxury to debate and argue about such things must seem very 'decadent' to many of those those in less developed nations....

[jazzer]

A piece of history, what Russia is doing to the Ukraine, the Ukraine did to the Poles in 1944. It was called ethnic cleansing then. What Russia is doing is wholly wrong, the point I'm attempting to make is that history Repeats itself.

https://www.thefirstnews.com/article/over-100000-slaughtered-with-axes-pitchforks-scythes-and-knives-the-wolyn-massacre-started-76-years-ago-today-and-lasted-for-two-years-6714

[jazzer]

No fly zone - the reason I believe the West does not want to impose a No fly zone is so as to prevent this was escalating into what would undoubtedly be World War 3. The West has learned the lessons from World Wars One and Two and is doing everything possible to prevent a third World War.

[JohnL]

jazzer Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> A piece of history, what Russia is doing to the

> Ukraine, the Ukraine did to the Poles in 1944. It

> was called ethnic cleansing then. What Russia is

> doing is wholly wrong, the point I'm attempting to

> make is that history Repeats itself.

>

> https://www.thefirstnews.com/article/over-100000-s

> laughtered-with-axes-pitchforks-scythes-and-knives

> -the-wolyn-massacre-started-76-years-ago-today-and

> -lasted-for-two-years-6714

Scrap that - I can only post this bit of wiki to show what hell is like - maybe we don't want to go back to this but the same feelings are being inflamed again - in my view this is why we got together to form the EU and I know others disagree strongly. Is it the Poles/Ukrainians fault or is it the Germans/Soviets ? When you are asked to participate in unethical practices even in war you are supposed to say no - could we - hopefully I'll never find out ?

"In 1941, two brothers of the Ukrainian leader Stepan Bandera were murdered, while they were imprisoned in Auschwitz, by Volksdeutsche kapos.[46] In the Chełm region, 394 Ukrainian community leaders were killed by the Poles on the grounds of collaboration with the German authorities.[47]

During the first year of the German occupation, the OUN urged its members to join German police units. They were trained in the use of weapons so they could assist the German SS in the murder of approximately 200,000 Volhynian Jews. While the Ukrainian police's share in the actual killings of Jews was small because it primarily played a supporting role, the Ukrainian police learned how to make use of genocidal techniques from the Germans: detailed and advanced planning and careful site selection, giving phony assurances to local populations prior to their annihilation, and sudden encirclement and mass killing. The training which the UPA received in 1942 explains how it was able to efficiently kill Poles in 1943.[48]"

[JohnL]

Boris has a six point plan

Sometimes I wonder if he is being used by NATO/USA/EU to Rope a Dope Putin.

I can't believe he comes up with stuff without talking about it with our allies first.

[KidKruger]

JohnL Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Boris has a six point plan

>

> Sometimes I wonder if he is being used by

> NATO/USA/EU to Rope a Dope Putin.

>

> I can't believe he comes up with stuff without

> talking about it with our allies first.

Surely whatever Johnson says is sort of irrelevant ?

We know he?s a liar, a populist, and irrevocably disloyal.

Do people still listen to what he says because they feel they should, or because they actually believe the guy ?

Either way, it?s a fools errand.

[Sephiroth]

I see the stop the war clowns are protesting in London today. With their hammer and sickle flags.

Ffs

[Chick]

So are you all gung ho and pro war?

Where is your evidence that Stop the War movement is pro Russia?

It simply against war, has been since 2003.

Sephiroth Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I see the stop the war clowns are protesting in

> London today. With their hammer and sickle flags.

>

>

> Ffs

[TheCat]

JohnL Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Boris has a six point plan

>

> Sometimes I wonder if he is being used by

> NATO/USA/EU to Rope a Dope Putin.

>

> I can't believe he comes up with stuff without

> talking about it with our allies first.

Havent seen what Boris has said today. But overall it does feel that the complete lack of leadership coming from the US President at present has created something of a vacuum, and the result (at least from a laymans perspective) seems to be a pretty disjointed 'front' from the west.

You have the EU saying and doing some things, Nato saying and doing other things, the UN making pointless symbolic resolutions, Macron going off trying to be a hero unilaterally, Boris doing whatever boris does, plus various other world leaders chipping in from time to time....

Perhaps this is how these things always are, but in the past the US repoinse has dominated the news cycle so its less noticeable what other bodies/nations are doing and saying....

In the absence of a dominant US voice in global affairs, it doesn make everyone else in the 'west' look a bit like a pen of headless chickens....

[EDguy89]

TheCat Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> Havent seen what Boris has said today. But overall

> it does feel that the complete lack of leadership

> coming from the US President at present has

> created something of a vacuum, and the result (at

> least from a laymans perspective) seems to be a

> pretty disjointed 'front' from the west.

>

> You have the EU saying and doing some things, Nato

> saying and doing other things, the UN making

> pointless symbolic resolutions, Macron going off

> trying to be a hero unilaterally, Boris doing

> whatever boris does, plus various other world

> leaders chipping in from time to time....

>

> Perhaps this is how these things always are, but

> in the past the US repoinse has dominated the news

> cycle so its less noticeable what other

> bodies/nations are doing and saying....

>

> In the ansence of a domina nt US voice in global

> affairs, it doesn make everyone else in the 'west'

> look a bit like a pen of headless chickens....

Fortunately for the west Biden won the election.

Trump is well documented to be a Putin fanboy and likely would have caused much more trouble in this situation had he won. If you're concern is leadership than you should be thankful for the actions taken by the Biden administration because the alternative would have created an actual pen of headless chickens rather than your perceived one.

[TheCat]

My comment is not meant to be supportive of trump in anyway. Or intended to compare Biden's administration directly to Trumps as you have done. The discussion of the US should be about so much more then Biden Vs Trump...my comment is on Biden...versus the history of the US in global conflict and global affairs

If you think Biden has done great by the overall standards of US statesmanship(not versus Trump), then that surprises me....

[firkinboo]

Please contribute to help the people of Ukraine

https://www.justgiving.com/crowdfunding/ukraineneedsyourhelp?utm_term=6bnvZdMv8

[JohnL]

TheCat Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> JohnL Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Boris has a six point plan

> >

> > Sometimes I wonder if he is being used by

> > NATO/USA/EU to Rope a Dope Putin.

> >

> > I can't believe he comes up with stuff without

> > talking about it with our allies first.

>

> Havent seen what Boris has said today. But overall

> it does feel that the complete lack of leadership

> coming from the US President at present has

> created something of a vacuum, and the result (at

> least from a laymans perspective) seems to be a

> pretty disjointed 'front' from the west.

The US secretary of State is leading this and is touring Europe - maybe that's how they are running it.

[Sephiroth]

"So are you all gung ho and pro war?

Where is your evidence that Stop the War movement is pro Russia?

It simply against war, has been since 2003. "

I'm neither gung ho or "pro" war - but when a Russian dictator sends tanks in to a neighbouring country and blows innocent people to smithereens, you have to either decide you are against him or with him. Saying "stop the war" isn't going to save anyone's life. Putin is not going to listen to you - he is going to carry on until he is stopped.

So when I see a stop the war movement on streets of London, waving their Russian flags and blaming the west, or NATO for what is happening (the same words as Putin) then yes, I am going to conclude they have taken Putin's side

[JohnL]

Blinken actually entered Ukraine yesterday

"The US secretary of state briefly crossed into Ukraine after meeting with the country's foreign minister, Dmytro Kuleba. The pair met at the border with Poland to discuss western efforts to support Ukraine after Russia invaded 10 days ago "

[Chick]

I don't think anyone on Stop the war protest supported Russia and you have no evidence that they did.

I personally Loath Putin and have done so since his sojourn into Chechnya in the 90's. (which we kept quiet about)

>

> So when I see a stop the war movement on streets

> of London, waving their Russian flags and blaming

> the west, or NATO for what is happening (the same

> words as Putin) then yes, I am going to conclude

> they have taken Putin's side

[Sephiroth]

Chick. I don?t doubt for a second you despise Putin

But blaming nato or the eu (as the organisers and many supporters of STW) have argued is supporting putin?s position

When uk govt embellishes reports to invade Iraq then a population protesting against its government makes some kind of sense

But this situation is nothing like that. If anything our government are doing too little. But ?stop the war? messages wouldn?t work in the 40s and they aren?t going to work now

[Chick]

I think it's reasonable to criticise NATO without in any way supporting Putin's position. The track record of NATO hasn't been brilliant.

Opposing the invasion of Iraq didn't mean you supported Hussain.

[Sephiroth]

but whatever the faults of NATO are what do they have to do with what's happening in Ukraine?

And it's at this point where STW start to say Putin wouldn't be taking any action if it wasn't for NATO something something something - and that is why they are aligned with Putin. It's not actually true

"Opposing the invasion of Iraq didn't mean you supported Hussain."

of course it didn't - but again, it's not relevant here.

[Chick]

Maybe I have missed something, aren't NATO moving eastward?

I have seen many pictures from the demonstration at the weekend and I didn't see one pro Russia poster.

You still haven't given any evidence that STW is pro Putin, it isn't, that's the kind of rubbish Johnson & co spout.

So again where is your evidence that STW movement is pro Putin?

[Sephiroth]

NATO isn't "moving" anywhere - sovereign countries might decide they want be a member (and if I was bordered by Russia I would want to be a member too) and apply to join - which is entirely legitimate, right?

You keep saying I'm not answering but I am answering and you aren't listening - Putin is using NATO as an excuse to justify his behaviour - and STW are buying it and repeating it. SO they are defect supporting Putin. I'm not saying STW literally back the ware - I'm saying they are giving Putin support by agreeing with his lies

[Chick]

"You keep saying I'm not answering but I am answering and you aren't listening - Putin is using NATO as an excuse to justify his behaviour - and STW are buying it and repeating it. SO they are defect supporting Putin. I'm not saying STW literally back the ware - I'm saying they are giving Putin support by agreeing with his lies"

Putin doesn't need an excuse, look at Crimea in 2014.

No body in STW supports or gives sucker to Putin. What you are suggesting is as daft as saying if you support a united Ireland you must support the IRA.

[diable rouge]

Recent polls in Sweden and Finland now showing a majority in favour of joining NATO.

This isn't NATO 'moving East', it's democratically run countries worried about Russia's actual expansionism/imperialism and bully boy threats...

[JohnL]

A few papers this morning saying Putin is dying of Bowel Cancer.