Cyclists taking over paths!!

[first mate]

Eh, what are you on about Mal? I thought we were talking about penalties for road users. I am not au fait with traffic penalties in Rwanda, are you? Mind you, with the amount of overseas travel you have flagged up as having done over the years perhaps you do? Either way, seems a bit off piste, even for you.

[Spartacus]

BBC News - Death by dangerous cycling set to become offence
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-69016715

[Rockets]

On a day that Will Norman tries to convince us floating bus stops are not an issue 

I do wonder whether he is in deliberate denial or being misled by his own numbers when I watch videos like this - is it bad design, cyclist arrogance or ignorance?

 

[Spartacus]

Do the two white lines represent a zebra crossing, where pedestrians have right of way ? 

Highway code rule 19 

Drivers and riders should give way to pedestrians waiting to cross and MUST give way to pedestrians on a zebra crossing (see Rule H2).

 

[first mate]

1 hour ago, Spartacus said:

Do the two white lines represent a zebra crossing, where pedestrians have right of way ? 

Highway code rule 19 

Drivers and riders should give way to pedestrians waiting to cross and MUST give way to pedestrians on a zebra crossing (see Rule H2).

 

Exactly, what really comes over in those clips is how reluctant cyclists are to stop or even slow down for pedestrians at the zebra.

This reminds me of a stance made by one of the more extreme cyclist posters years ago. He objected to disability mobility scooters in cycle lanes on the grounds this would slow down cyclists and get in the way. Instead he felt they should be in bus lanes (so safe) or on the pavement.

[march46]

Chris Boardman speaking about road danger is worth a watch.

 

[malumbu]

Thanks for posting, yes this disproportionate focus on cyclists is not helpful. There are much better things that government can do to reduce the number of all road users killed and seriously injured. 

[Spartacus]

Is it disproportionate? 

Focusing on bad cycling may make cyclists take a less aggressive stance on the road, which in turn may make them more cautious at crossings and red lights which could result in less accidents involving cyclists. Equally, their change in attitude may be picked up by motorists who will start to respect them more resulting in better tolerance,  maybe less accidents and ultimately everyone benefits.

Small changes can make a big difference 😁

[malumbu]

It's disproportionate as the number killed and seriously injured by drivers is so much greater. As Boardman said.  Tories did some great stuff on cyclist training, why not a positive message.  They have done a lot right.

[Rockets]

Chris Boardman makes a very valid point but he is also engaging in a serious piece of whataboutery and the go-to position for the pro-cycle lobby that we don't kill as many people as cars is blinkered in the extreme. 

Let's be clear - there is an increasing problem with bad cycling - that video from NFBUK clearly illustrates the problem and the swerving around pedestrians (did you notice an elderly woman actually gets hit by one of the cyclists) and ignoring of infrastructure to make pedestrians safe is all too familiar - now is that bad design, or cyclist arrogance/ignorance? I saw Simon Monk on the BBC news last night saying that they shouldn't remove floating bus stops as that increases risk to cyclists - which can also be interpreted that he is happy for the risk to be put on pedestrians instead. For too long this type of attitude has created the feeling that many in TFL etc only care for cycling, that cycling is king and the only form of transport that matters but this can hardly be surprising if you install cycle lobbyists in positions of authority and power.

 

There was a lot of focus on how the changes to the Highway Code offered more protection for cyclists (a good thing) but many cyclists seemed to have overlooked the increased protection afforded to pedestrians with the new hierarchy of road users and the need for cyclists to give way to pedestrians at junctions - which you very rarely see.

 

And when I read articles like the below it is clear there is an increasing problem and when Strava has the Outer Circle on it's leaderboard it is encouraging cyclists to race and it will inevitably lead to more accidents and deaths like the one below.

This sentence sums up the problem:

The fastest ever public completion of the Regent's Park CCW segment, which is 4.4km long, was 4:49 in September last year, which means it was done at a speed of 54.8km/h, or 34mph.

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/strava-urged-to-delete-popular-london-cycling-segment-after-deadly-crash

 

I think it is time for the cycle lobby to start engaging in pragmatism instead of idealism - their increasingly negative perception is being crafted by their own actions.

 

Edited May 16, 2024 by Rockets

[Spartacus]

5 hours ago, malumbu said:

It's disproportionate as the number killed and seriously injured by drivers is so much greater. As Boardman said.  Tories did some great stuff on cyclist training, why not a positive message.  They have done a lot right.

As I pointed out Mal, if cyclists acted correctly, didn't flount the rules and gained respect from other road users, then maybe accidents would be reduced and everyone would be happier, but if feels like you are convinced that cyclists are never in the wrong and vehicle drivers are 100% responsible for all collisions.

There may be more cyclists and pedestrians killed or injured by drivers, but remember there are already rules in place for drivers so why should cyclists not adhere to the same rules and penalties? Or do you disagree and think rules and penalties shouldn't apply to all? 

Everyone should obey the rules and the highway code to make it safer for all. 

[Spartacus]

More disproportionate measures Mal ? 

BBC News - Wandsworth: Cycle speed on Thames Path to be reduced for safety - BBC News
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cg303j4142mo

[alice]

Getting brazen: Man with kids on a bike speeding Peckham Park

[Rockets]

Love this video of Simon Munk talking about the floating bus stop issues...just watch the behaviour of the cyclists who appear in shot....not one of them following the rules....the fact that LCC pushed this out shows just how blinkered they are...it's like that famous clip of some local government official being interviewed on the road side to talk about how much safer that particular stretch of road is now because of their interventions and a crash happens right behind him!

 

[Hen123]

I saw a pedestrian ambling down the middle of the cycle path without a care in the world, then a pedestrian cross without looking, then I lost interest…

On 16/05/2024 at 16:38, Spartacus said:

As I pointed out Mal, if cyclists acted correctly, didn't flount the rules and gained respect from other road users, then maybe accidents would be reduced and everyone would be happier, but if feels like you are convinced that cyclists are never in the wrong and vehicle drivers are 100% responsible for all collisions.

There may be more cyclists and pedestrians killed or injured by drivers, but remember there are already rules in place for drivers so why should cyclists not adhere to the same rules and penalties? Or do you disagree and think rules and penalties shouldn't apply to all? 

Everyone should obey the rules and the highway code to make it safer for all. 

Cyclists break the rules considerably less than other road users. So you should turn that question around.

 https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-7027809/amp/Cyclists-break-fewer-rules-road-motorists-Danish-study-finds.html

[Spartacus]

Love good studies NOT done with British cyclists, it's a bit lile saying because Germans are well behaved on holiday, every nation is well behaved! 

There is a particular idiosyncratic way that cyclists here behaved compare to places like Holland or Denmark.

Maybe go out and observe how things really are rather than trying to dismiss genuine concerns of pedestrians over floating bus stops and people cycling on footpaths. 

[malumbu]

On 18/05/2024 at 09:34, Spartacus said:

More disproportionate measures Mal ? 

BBC News - Wandsworth: Cycle speed on Thames Path to be reduced for safety - BBC News
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cg303j4142mo

I thought it would be useful to post the a link on regulatory impact assessments, this is a process government goes through in considering new policies, including proportionality and return on investment ie does the means justify the end https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/impact-assessments-guidance-for-government-departments

In 2016 the government agreed that it was not worth changing the law. I suspect this time round the assessment was the same, but this was a political decision by a zombie government desperate for votes, and happy to fabricate a culture war as a distraction from their shambolic performance.

As for the Thames Route, it's all gravely and hardly a place that I would want to race.  I can't imagine the council being their with speed guns and don't know if and how they could enforce this,  It's an over the top way of asking people to be more considerate, and would have been cheaper to put a few signs up.  It did make me chuckle though as I used it a few times during lockdown, with the number of pedestrians it was very slow and the only annoying people were the bally runners who didn't slow down, do you remember when they were public enemy #1?  May see if I can find one of the old threads.

Back to cycling on the road, walking over to Nunhead Cemetery yesterday near the race track of Brenchley Gardens, the traffic calming is so bad and endangers cyclists, it would make sense to make the pavements shared walking/cycling.  I did post something up yonks ago about Southwark's changes to Brenchley Gardens race track, but sadly got zero interest.

[alice]

M. You have adopted victimhood as a cyclist. Your views are so narrow you can’t see what is actually happening. yesterday I was millimetres from a collision with a speeding cyclist in the park who made a very close pass causing me to stumble.  Pedestrian and cyclist sharing routes do not work in urban areas.  Maybe you want a certain demographic to stay at home. Rethink.

[malumbu]

Well my experience of three decades of cycling in London is that all my near misses with pedestrians is when they step out onto a road without looking.  And from the other way round when I dashed out to cross the road in central London without looking so more fool me. Not sure what all this vitriol is about.  There are so many bigger issues in society and across the world as a whole, yet a small number of you continue to stoke up conflict.  Now about to spread love and peace on this sunny day.

[Spartacus]

Thanks Alice 

It is a laugh out loud moment as Mal cries, it's not me , I'm a good cyclists so all cyclists must be good.

Face it @malumbu the majority of them realy don't seem to care about anyone else on the road. As I have pointed out earlier, if everyone obeyed the rules, there would be less issues. But your view appears to be "cyclists good, cars bad" and you are so blinkered as alice said that you can't see the tarmac for the mud in your eyes 

Edited May 19, 2024 by Spartacus

[alice]

M Everything absolutely everything about your response demonstrates exactly what I was saying. 

[Hen123]

1 hour ago, Spartacus said:

Love good studies NOT done with British cyclists, it's a bit lile saying because Germans are well behaved on holiday, every nation is well behaved! 

There is a particular idiosyncratic way that cyclists here behaved compare to places like Holland or Denmark.

Maybe go out and observe how things really are rather than trying to dismiss genuine concerns of pedestrians over floating bus stops and people cycling on footpaths. 

I have been there and cyclist/motorist behaviour is similar to here. You only have to walk around London for a few hours to see 1000s of car drivers breaking the law you may see one or two cyclists jump a red light.

Besides I am not sure what you think your whinging about cyclists will achieve. The police base the targeting of their resources on minimising harm to the public not the views of a few anti cycling bigots on an internet forum. As 99% of deaths and injuries are caused by reckless car drivers that is always where their will focus be. 

[Spartacus]

@Hen123 it's quite a simple proposition 

ALL road users ahould obey ALL rules in the highway code and there would be less issues 

or are you saying that cyclists are excempt from the rules as in your opinion it is mostly car drivers breaking them? 

We can't have one rule for some and different rules for others as that would make us all Tories 🤣

Edited May 19, 2024 by Spartacus

[alice]

H. This is a local forum and it’s for local issues. Making generalised observations is totally irrelevant. I think it is you who is the whingeing bigot.

[Hen123]

1 hour ago, Spartacus said:

@Hen123 it's quite a simple proposition 

ALL road users ahould obey ALL rules in the highway code and there would be less issues 

or are you saying that cyclists are excempt from the rules as in your opinion it is mostly car drivers breaking them? 

We can't have one rule for some and different rules for others as that would make us all Tories 🤣

So why do so many car drivers break rules? It is around 85%. What do you think should be done about that?