Unbelievable destruction: West Norwood marble fountain demolished

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

Just been through West Norwood and was stunned at the destruction caused by a crash.

There is an 1899 marble drinking fountain standing in a pedestrian island outside the West Norwood Library - or at least there should be. The thing has been smashed into three bits, knocked across the pavement, and sprayed with broken glass and bits of some kind of vehicle.

Presumably the vehicle that did this must have been travelling with some force when it mounted the kerb and sent the stone blocks flying: significant weight or speed or both. Supposedly this is a 20mph zone.

Look around and you'll see this kind of damage (hopefully less dramatic) all over the shop: smashed bollards, knocked over traffic signs, squashed lights and askew kerbstones are hardly rare. If these were blast marks from explosions, we'd think this was a dangerous place and worry about what would have happened if we were standing there when it happened. We wouldn't let our kids go where buildings were covered in the recent pock marks of bullets. But we all seem to ignore the signs of road violence and accept it...

Edit: this might have happened almost two weeks ago???

https://x.com/PaoloIskandar64/status/1847684879011446917

[MrsR]

That is absolutely shocking!!!

[Earl Aelfheah]

On 22/10/2024 at 00:58, Dogkennelhillbilly said:

Look around and you'll see this kind of damage (hopefully less dramatic) all over the shop: smashed bollards, knocked over traffic signs, squashed lights and askew kerbstones are hardly rare. If these were blast marks from explosions, we'd think this was a dangerous place and worry about what would have happened if we were standing there when it happened. We wouldn't let our kids go where buildings were covered in the recent pock marks of bullets. But we all seem to ignore the signs of road violence and accept it...

100%. Plus tens of thousands of killed or seriously injured each year. The level of destruction caused by careless and dangerous driving  has become almost normalised / accepted as just a fact of life. More needs to be done.

[Penguin68]

2 hours ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

Plus tens of thousands of killed or seriously injured each year. The level of destruction caused by careless and dangerous driving  has become almost normalised / accepted as just a fact of life. More needs to be done.

There were in fact, in 2023, in Great Britain as a whole, 3 'tens of thousands' of deaths and serious injuries' (29,643), although deaths at 1,649 were 4% down on the previous year. Overall casualties recorded were 132,063, also down (by 3%) from the previous year. Any casualty, serious injury and of course death is very sad, but try not to hyperbolise about this. 

[Earl Aelfheah]

47 minutes ago, Penguin68 said:

There were in fact, in 2023, in Great Britain as a whole, 3 'tens of thousands' of deaths and serious injuries' (29,643), although deaths at 1,649 were 4% down on the previous year. Overall casualties recorded were 132,063, also down (by 3%) from the previous year. Any casualty, serious injury and of course death is very sad, but try not to hyperbolise about this. 

So tens of thousands killed or seriously injured then. As I said? Where is the hyperbole?

[Penguin68]

I suppose I could say that 'tens of thousands' implies more tens than 'fewer than 3 tens' - I suppose I could add that the trend is in fact downwards - at a time, post Covid, when road usage increased. But I'm not sure I will bother - oh, I just have.

Edited November 1, 2024 by Penguin68

[Rockets]

Does anyone know what caused the damage? Was it dangerous or careless driving?

[Earl Aelfheah]

Why are there people on this forum absolutely obsessed with the danger posed by people on push bikes, but always seeking to minimise the seriousness of almost 30,000 dead or seriously injured people each year in the UK alone, caused by the careless use of motor vehicles? It's so weird. 

Referring to 30,000 KSIs as in the 'tens of thousands' (which it is) and suggesting it's too high and we should seek to do more to reduce that figure, is considered 'hyperbolic'. WTAF?

I think it perfectly illustrates the point that:

5 hours ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

The level of destruction caused by careless and dangerous driving  has become almost normalised / accepted as just a fact of life.

 

56 minutes ago, Penguin68 said:

I suppose I could say that 'tens of thousands' implies more tens than 'fewer than 3 tens'

You could say that 30,000 is not 'tens of thousands', but that would make you look very stupid. would 40,000 be a figure in the 'tens of thousands' in your mind? What about '50,000'? What do you understand as 'tens of thousands'?

Edited November 1, 2024 by Earl Aelfheah

[first mate]

Except this is really a forum for local ED issues. I suspect most forum members are responsible drivers and adhere to legal speed limits etc.. I very much doubt anyone on this thread supports dangerous or illegal driving, which seems to be your implication?

On the other hand, there do seem to be growing local issues with careless cycling. I have witnessed this two nights running around Dulwich Square, where cyclists are running red lights at speed, and more. I get the impression certain posters on this forum do not see this as an issue at all. I also think there is an accident waiting to happen at that junction, because some cyclists are not cycling responsibly.

[Earl Aelfheah]

That someone could take exception at the suggestion that almost 30K KSIs is too many is incredible. The fact that one might take the suggestion as some sort of personal slight is extremely sad. 

As I said, the amount of destruction (yes, even just locally) caused by careless driving has become normalised / accepted as a part of life. This is perfectly evidenced by those who immediately jump to minimise the harms caused by motor vehicles, even quibbling about whether 30,000 constitutes a number in the 'tens of thousands' or not. And of course, inevitably we have people drawing false equivalence with the 'dangers' of push bicycles.

We really need to stop this nonsense. If you cannot agree that more needs to be done to address the level of destruction caused by careless and dangerous driving, then there is something deeply wrong with you in my opinion. Look at those pictures at the top of the thread and show me where someone travelling on a push bike has caused similar damage.

Edited November 1, 2024 by Earl Aelfheah

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

 

4 hours ago, first mate said:

Except this is really a forum for local ED issues.

🤦‍♂️

[Rockets]

Does anyone actually know what caused the damage? Was it dangerous or careless driving?

[malumbu]

Without police presence unless you have evidence, in particular video,  the police are unlikely to charge someone for dangerous driving. and CPS recommend going to court on this charge.  Most prosecutions are for careless driving,  which covers a wide range of offences but has a lower bar.

So another road user could collide into me, whilst speeding, on their phone, or even looking at their watch, and whilst this clearly is 'dangerous' they could be charged with careless driving.

So in the eyes of the person on the street it is irrelevant if the driver was careless or dangerous.  And as no harm to a person I expect even less likely that someone would be charged with dangerous driving on this occasion.

Edited November 2, 2024 by malumbu
Better explanation

[Rockets]

But does anyone know what actually happened - that it indeed was careless or dangerous driving or are we all going a bit Dulwich Roads and presuming it was as a matter of default?

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

You don't usually end up with bits of car and lumps of stone fountain sprayed across the pavement with careful and safe driving...

I've searched online and can't see any news reports or Tweets etc it whatsoever - although plenty of other reports about other serious crashes along that same stretch of road.  Perhaps I'm just overlooking the reports or using the wrong search terms. Perhaps it's a sign of how normalised road violence is that this is an unremarkable event. 🤷

[Rockets]

Ok, so we're guessing/presuming it was careless or dangerous driving - its all gone a bit Dulwich Roads hasn't it?

There are a many different reasons why things like that happen and often careless, dangerous driving or excess speed has nothing to do with it but it seems all too easy to jump to conclusions without ever bothering to establish the facts - again, all very Dulwich Roads. Not every accident is due to bad driving.

As much as it could have been careless or dangerous driving it could also have been caused by a driver having to take evasive action to avoid a pedestrian walking into the road whilst staring at their phone - you just don't know.

Edited November 2, 2024 by Rockets

[snowy]

You clearly don't understand that junction then.

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

3 hours ago, Rockets said:

it could also have been caused by a driver having to take evasive action to avoid a pedestrian walking into the road whilst staring at their phone 

Maybe it was aliens.

Maybe it was a false flag black op by the Marxist-Globalist London Cycling Campaign.

Maybe it was caused by masked Sadiq Khan when he was throwing custard pies in the face of innocent London drivers as part of the War On Motorists, and a nun who was driving a minibus of donations at 20mph to an orphanage (a puppy orphanage!) was blinded, had to swerve, hopped the kerb, and smacked into a stone memorial so hard it broke into three parts.

Or maybe it was the usual combination of a dickhead driving too fast and too stupidly.

[Rockets]

But, a bit like a Dulwich Roads "report", you're guessing/hoping aren't you because you don't know and haven't established what actually happened.

 

 

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

On 01/11/2024 at 14:58, Earl Aelfheah said:

If you cannot agree that more needs to be done to address the level of destruction caused by careless and dangerous driving, then there is something deeply wrong with you

In 2021, the last period for which data is available, someone in Southwark was injured in a hit and run crash almost every day (351 per annum).

The number of people injured in hit and run crashes in London doubled between 2011 and 2021. Every day, 2 of those injuries are fatal or serious.

But maybe none of these hit and run drivers were careless or dangerous drivers either. Maybe they were all taking evasive action to avoid a pedestrian walking into the road whilst staring at their phone - you just don't know. 

https://www.london.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2024-01/Hit and run the escalating crisis on London roads - January 2024 Caroline Russell Report.pdf

[DulvilleRes]

On 02/11/2024 at 17:45, Rockets said:

But, a bit like a Dulwich Roads "report", you're guessing/hoping aren't you because you don't know and haven't established what actually happened.

 

 

Great to see you take an interest in complete factual accuracy. I'm looking forward to you applying it to the stream of factual inaccuracies and misleading statements that the anti-LTN lobby put out, so that they don't have to be constantly fact-checked and corrected by people on this forum. 

[Spartacus]

3 hours ago, DulvilleRes said:

Great to see you take an interest in complete factual accuracy. I'm looking forward to you applying it to the stream of factual inaccuracies and misleading statements that the anti-LTN lobby put out, so that they don't have to be constantly fact-checked and corrected by people on this forum. 

I'm pretty sure that both sides in the discussion use spin, truth bending and data manipulation to get their point over. 

[malumbu]

Don't know where this 'two sides' accusation comes from.  Bit silly to me 

Something demolished a famous statue.  There is nothing on line to say what it was, any criminality involved and the like. Presumably a motorised vehicle.  To get this momentum it would have to be going fast and/or be heavy.  Unless it was a bulldozer it would have suffered major damage, as could the occupants.

What is controversial about these views?

[Rockets]

But still no-one knows what actually happened do they....

 

Of course, there is dangerous and careless driving but by presuming every accident is caused by this is blinkered in the extreme - but there seem to be a lot of people who suffer from extreme blinkeredness when it comes to such things...

Edited November 4, 2024 by Rockets

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

17 minutes ago, Rockets said:

presuming every accident is caused by this is blinkered in the extreme

"The term ‘road accident’ exemplifies society’s tolerance of road danger. Too many still do not hold drivers accountable for their actions, implying instead it was a matter of chance. By using the word ‘accident’ – society is saying that there is nothing that can be done about these deaths and injuries, and they are an acceptable pay off for having motor vehicles. Planes and trains do not have ‘accidents’ – they crash."

https://www.roadpeace.org/working-for-change/crash-not-accident/