South Circular roadworks - excessive disruption

[Penguin68]

I've just received a note from TFL (I'm in Underhill) to say that access to the South Circular going West from Lordship Lane - and probably East as well (now virtually the only access since Dulwich Village was cut-off) is to be severely curtailed from the end of February to mid June so that the much sought after pedestrian crossing at the London Road/ A205 Junction can be installed. Taking 3 and a half months of disruption! Anywhere else in the world this would be a week's job.

I'm sorry, but this is an absolute disgrace! The A205 (the jocularly named South Circular) is an artery (a pretty sclerotic one, but the only one we've got!) for East: West connectivity for us South East Londoners - to effectively turn it into a three and half month traffic jam through the borough is appalling, and shows just how much (lack of) care the powers that be have for us.

I'm absolutely in favour of an improved crossing here - but I note that our councillors appear to have done nothing but acquiesce in TFL's proposal - clearly they simply don't care about the costs in both social and commercial traffic that will be imposed on us. For work that should not take this sort of time at all! The complexity will be on the timings of the new lights to allow passage of vehicles and people, and that can be worked out (will be worked out) at a work-station in an office. The rest is simple wiring. And probably, whilst they're there, some resurfacing to redefine road and pavement. Which does not take  three and a half months! Unless you are lazy and incompetent idiots unable to plan simple works.

I wonder, over that three and a half months of disruption, just how few workers, on how few days, we may expect to see actually 'working' there? But what matters, so long as they're happy and unstressed!

As usual we, the idiots paying for this, can go hang! And look forward to the endless jams polluting our atmosphere.

Edited March 9 by Administrator
More descriptive title

[jazzer]

Thanks for highlighting and raising this. Guess that means severe disruption for bus services, especially the P4 and P13.  

[Penguin68]

Oh yes, and the stops nearest the works are to be 'closed', it appears, for the duration. So a longer walk for any elderly and or disabled who are reliant on public transport. 

[Spartacus]

Can you post a copy of the note ? 

[Penguin68]

Sorry, it's over 3 pages and in hard copy. 

[malumbu]

Not a lot to say in the issue but what makes you so knowledgeable about highways to call professionals clowns?  Why not enquire of TfL about the time this is taking.  You could offer your professional services.

[Sue]

7 minutes ago, Penguin68 said:

Sorry, it's over 3 pages and in hard copy. 

To be fair (and I know absolutely nothing about what is involved in roadworks etc) they have said exactly what they are doing and within what time period for each stage of the work.

I imagine they are doing a load of necessary work in one go rather than have several separate periods of inconvenience and having to keep taking down and putting up signs, barriers etc?

That junction is presently a death trap in waiting for pedestrians, so I am delighted there is finally going to be a crossing there, regardless of the inconvenience before it is completed.

I'm sure there is somewhere you can complain if you think the total time period is excessive? MP? Councillors? TfL? Mayor?

[jazzer]

I can see this being a mare for however you travel, that is a major junction which is likely to cause huge tailbacks in all three directions whether coming or going. A week's notice followed by three of potential chaos. 

Shame they can't sort out The Grove tavern, but with so much traffic work being done, would be lovely if it remained a pub(unlikely) or Lidl opened a branch there. 

[Insuflo]

Would you rather not have been informed? I received the letter, which was hand delivered to a very wide area, which seems to me to be a commendable effort to inform road users. The letter is very detailed and explains exactly what is being done, when and where, including dates and precise times. 
 

The letter is signed by the named head of the project and includes full contact details with an invitation to respond with any concerns. Why don’t you complain to them? I seem to remember there being a consultation exercise regarding these works, did you respond to it? I did.

It is surely impossible to carry out such a major scheme without disruption. However, it seems that the phasing of the works over three months is in an attempt to minimise disruption.
What exactly would you rather TfL did differently? Can you give an example of a similar scheme “anywhere else in the world” that was completed in your proposed timeframe of “a week’s job”? Perhaps you could share your expertise with the benighted engineers at TfL.

[Cyclemonkey]

I am so glad this is finally happening, that crossing is a death trap.

It looks like the time taken is due to the phasing of works, presumably taking in to account it is on a very busy red route so it is not feasible to totally close the road. 

 

 

[alice]

It does seem an excessive amount of time to put in pedestrian crossing. Perhaps they could consider opening alternative routes temporarily.

[jazzer]

If it ain't broke don't fix it.

How many near misses or fatalities have there been at that junction?

[malumbu]

This thread has the most annoying title.  I learned long ago that if you want to debate you avoid facetious statements.  In particular as some may not agree with the original statement.  It's the sort of thing Trump would say.

[Cyclemonkey]

9 hours ago, jazzer said:

If it ain't broke don't fix it.

How many near misses or fatalities have there been at that junction?

I think waiting for someone to die to get a usable pedestrian crossing in a  rediential areas next to green spaces and a sports clubs is a pretty low bar.

 

 

[beansprout]

On 19/02/2025 at 22:26, jazzer said:

I can see this being a mare for however you travel, that is a major junction which is likely to cause huge tailbacks in all three directions whether coming or going. A week's notice followed by three of potential chaos. 

Shame they can't sort out The Grove tavern, but with so much traffic work being done, would be lovely if it remained a pub(unlikely) or Lidl opened a branch there. 

 

Why on earth is it going to take 3.5 months? Other countries do it much faster - what is wrong with this country? Unless of course underlying problems - potential sink hole being one…the inconvenience caused to all - wonder if working at weekend would speed it up & at night..

[Sue]

11 hours ago, jazzer said:

If it ain't broke don't fix it.

How many near misses or fatalities have there been at that junction?

You want to wait for someone to die? Nice.

Obviously data isn't kept on "near misses". 

If you are crossing from the side where the entrance to the woods is, there is no view of vehicles coming from the Forest Hill direction until they have come at great speed round the corner.

For years I have walked up to the bus stop on that side of the road up the hill to get a bus, rather than risk crossing the road at that junction to go to the much nearer bus stop outside the old Harvester.

 

1 hour ago, beansprout said:

 

Why on earth is it going to take 3.5 months? Other countries do it much faster - what is wrong with this country? Unless of course underlying problems - potential sink hole being one…the inconvenience caused to all - wonder if working at weekend would speed it up & at night..

See Insuflo's post above!

Edited February 21 by Sue

[malumbu]

Thinking further we have a serious matter about pedestrian safety yet there is a reference to clowns.  @Penguin can you change the title please?

[Spartacus]

It does raise a good general question on why any public realm works seem to take so long. 

If a company like Conway was being paid directly by us, we would be demanding a quick and efficient service, but being contracted by the council seems to extend delivery times. Look at how long it took to do the works on Dulwich Square as an example. 

Should we not be getting better value out of our public realm projects ? 

[exdulwicher]

50 minutes ago, Spartacus said:

It does raise a good general question on why any public realm works seem to take so long. 

You could do it much quicker if a full and complete road closure was put in and they could work nightshifts. But no-one would ever go for that.

Combination of keeping the whole lot at least partially open (so extensive traffic management set-up), phased works so that all the utilities can be worked on in the right sequence (cos it'll be like spaghetti underneath that road with water mains, gas, electricity, phone and internet and probably a few unexpected things too), there'll be a bit of leeway for weather-related disruption, there'll be costs for 24/7 on-site security (like stopping anyone running off with equipment, vandalising it etc).

1 hour ago, Sue said:

Obviously data isn't kept on "near misses". 

Depends on the sensor and camera network around there, it can be done. 

 

12 hours ago, jazzer said:

If it ain't broke don't fix it.

How many near misses or fatalities have there been at that junction?

It is broken, it's been on the cards since mid-2000's for improvement works there but there are also questions of ownership (of the roads and the surrounding land, especially the Grove Tavern) and there have long been campaigns for safer crossing facilities there. 

[Sue]

16 minutes ago, exdulwicher said:

 

Depends on the sensor and camera network around there, it can be done. 

 

Surely it would need someone to look  through things for years, and I doubt the camera recordings are kept that long?

Also, how would you define a "near miss"?

In any case, there would be absolutely no point!

All somebody needs to do is stand at that crossing during a time of reasonably heavy traffic (or even low traffic) and it will be quite obvious what the problem is, and that it's a risky situation for any pedestrian trying to assess when/if it is safe to cross.

For anybody with a buggy or children it must be even worse.

Basically if you really want to cross there you just have to cross your fingers and go for it.

And in my experience,  most cars do not slow down going round that corner.

[jazzer]

2 hours ago, malumbu said:

Thinking further we have a serious matter about pedestrian safety yet there is a reference to clowns.  @Penguin can you change the title please?

Maybe the reference is to Southwark Council/TfL

[Penguin68]

Just to clarify:-
1.    I’ve lived at the south end of Underhill for 37 years and am well aware of the dangers of crossing around the Junction of the A205 and Lordship Lane as it turns into London Road. And I entirely support work to remedy and obviate those dangers – I’ve never, during the day, not had to run to cross to get busses, and at my age running is not as easy as it was! The fact that it has taken ‘the powers that be’ so excessively long to come up with a solution for that junction underlines the planning problems associated with that junction, managing South Circular traffic through what is actually in places 4 lanes (one a bus lane) being fed by 3 lanes going down to 2 (the South Circular) lane system, one lane, and sometimes two lanes being bus lanes. With the need to interweave pedestrians wanting and needing to cross both the South Circular and Lordship lane at that junction to access public transport. But I presume, now, that this planning problem has been resolved, such that a solution can be implemented. As I said I my first post, programming light phasing will be a real challenge, but not one that has to be achieved on site (just the implantation, little different from installing any traffic light system).
2.    The actual amount of the road network that will need work is relatively short, again I’m guessing. At the most I’m assuming 200 yards on each of the three road segments leading from the junction itself – The Lordship Lane/ London Road sections and the A205 joining at right angles. Does it really take TFL contractors three and a half months to ‘fix’ 600 yards of roadway (if that)? Remembering that unlike Thames Water they are not having to excavate anything? Just resurface? Normally it would take only a couple of days to resurface that length of road – although the fact that they are working on a major thorough-fare (yes, the A205 is as major as it gets for us) does mean that they cannot simply close the road off, and the LTNs and other restrictions mean that diversionary routes are not possible.
3.    It would be entirely possible, particularly in that area where there is minimal housing (some flats over the shopping area of course) to do night work, which would be much less disruptive of traffic, and where much progress could be made, but I bet they are not going to do that.
4.    Unless the work is to prepare some sort of fly-over I cannot imagine that it could conceivably take three and half months lapsed time (i.e. actual working time) to do this work – even with the ridiculously and slow UK working practices (nowhere else in the entire world have I seen notices over a few miles of motorway ‘improvement’ suggesting that the work in progress would take 18 months (or longer) as I regularly see on British motorways). Even allowing for problems associated with letting traffic flow continue I believe that we won’t see weekend or night work, nor, frequently, I’m guessing, any work going on during the ‘working’ day. Instead we will see different gangs with different skills rolling up on occasion to do their bit and then nothing until the next group deigns to turn up. 
5.    Anywhere else in the world a major through route for traffic (yes, I know, it’s ridiculous, but that’s what the South Circular is) would have work expedited to reduce delays and associated costs of disruption – but the ‘clowns’ – and I use that word intentionally – who have planned this clearly and simply don’t care about the impact of their plans - other of course, and rightly, the eventual reduction of risk for pedestrians, which, as I have said, is to be applauded.. Weekend and night-time work would severely reduce the disruption time, and the disruption effect. If people (and commercial materials) have hours added to their journeys into and through Dulwich – well, why should they care? It’s not their money or time or convenience. And if people who live here have standing traffic puffing out fumes, well, tough innit?
 

Edited February 21 by Penguin68

[Insuflo]

So, essentially you are whinging about 3 months of planned works to resolve a serious problem that you admit has dragged on for at least the last four decades? Your complaint seems rather out of proportion.

Also, I suggest you read the letter properly, you clearly have not understood it. And then you can complain to the person named in the letter, who took the time to write to you inviting you to contact them if you have any concerns.

[Cyclemonkey]

It's clear from the photo of the letter thay some of the works are going to be night works.

[alice]

My subtle call to open the village to through traffic has gone unnoticed. I think that’s the only solution to avoid three months of absolute pollution and avoidable interruption to normal lives.