Why do cyclists flaunt the rules (note this is not a bashing thread and SHOULD not be turned in to a "but what about drivers" thread )

[Spartacus]

Aimed at cyclists and others alike. Please don't use it to sling mud at cyclists, or drivers but to have a genuine discussion about causation and motivation.

Genuine discussion point, why do so many cyclists flount the rules, including going through red lights, cycling on pavements amongst other bad practices ? 

What is their motivation and causation? 

Why has it now started to be the norm? 

I am curious to hear from cyclists directly amongst others to understand the reasons.

Keep it civil, if you want to say "what about drivers" open your own thread and ask the question as this is looking for causes. 

Also don't use it to moan about bad cycling but have a serious straight forward discussion.

 

As a starter: has the fairly recent explosion of hire bikes impacted the perceived bad behaviour by cyclists? 

Edited Saturday at 11:03 by Spartacus

[ed_pete]

I've commuted into town for 25+ years and so have been able to see the changes over a long period of time.  I'd say that the number of people cycling has increased significantly in that period, especially over the winter period where then the numbers used to drop off in the dark and cold.

For me there has always been a degree of bad behaviour but mostly people jumping lights or riding without lights in the dark. However the last 7 years or so it's got a lot worse and in simple terms in my view it's money related.

If you're doing food deliveries then you want to do as many as you can I guess to earn the maximum income and you know that you're very unlikely to be pulled over by the police.  Similarly the Lime et al riders are paying for hire and it's purely time based so the quicker you get from A-to-B the less it costs you.

Then those that are riding their own bikes see the behaviour of others and I guess they think "well if  they can do it why don't I".  I don't witness a lot of pavement cycling by those on their own bikes other than parents with young children which I understand but don't condone.  Mostly it's the same cohort as above - food delivery and rental bikes.

C'est la vie I expect.  Unless there were significantly increased policing of bad behaviour then it's here to stay. 

[Penguin68]

I have made this point before (apologies) but a lot of cyclists seem to demonstrate a mind set of being pedestrians on wheels. As a pedestrian I don't feel bound to obey traffic lights (I'll cross a crossing when it looks safe, not necessarily just when I have a green light) and I'll move from road to pavement to grass verge as I choose and without signalling. Just like many a cyclist. If you keep a pedestrian mind set then you don't act like a vehicle. But a person. But as a vehicle driver I expect other 'vehicles' in which category I include cycles, to act like vehicles. That may be where the problem lies. 

[Hen123]

On 16/08/2025 at 12:02, Spartacus said:

Aimed at cyclists and others alike. Please don't use it to sling mud at cyclists, or drivers but to have a genuine discussion about causation and motivation.

Genuine discussion point, why do so many cyclists flount the rules, including going through red lights, cycling on pavements amongst other bad practices ? 

What is their motivation and causation? 

Why has it now started to be the norm? 

I am curious to hear from cyclists directly amongst others to understand the reasons.

Keep it civil, if you want to say "what about drivers" open your own thread and ask the question as this is looking for causes. 

Also don't use it to moan about bad cycling but have a serious straight forward discussion.

 

As a starter: has the fairly recent explosion of hire bikes impacted the perceived bad behaviour by cyclists? 

Probably the same reason so many  motorists flout the rules. Answer the question - why do 95% of motorists break the speed limit and you probably find the reason some cyclists jump red lights. 

[Spartacus]

Third post and its "what about cars" 

Read the title of the thread again then go start that question in you own different thread 🤔

I am genuinely trying to explore why cyclists often flount the rules and "because they do it" isn't an excuse 

If they jump off a cliff, would you ? 

[SE22_2020er]

My interpretation of Hen123's point is that cyclists are humans as are car drivers, pedestrians etc.... ...."he who is without sin, let him cast the first stone."  Everybody does things that they shouldn't - pedestrians drop litter and graffiti walls, car drivers speed, use their phones and kill a disproportionate number of people when they're driving, bus passengers verbally abuse bus drivers etc.  etc.

I've been cycling to work pretty much every day in London now for over 25 years (I'm also a driver and a pedestrian!) and apart from a huge increase in volume of cycling, which I'm sure everyone welcomes because it cuts down on car usage, I don't see proportionally any worse cycling than I used to see 20 years ago when delivery cyclists on fixed bikes were decried by the Daily Mail for going through red lights and nearly knocking old ladies over.

My commute to West London takes me 75 mins each way and last week I counted bicycles I passed and their misdemeanours.   Of the 238 I counted one day, there were none cycling on the pavement and 12 that went through red lights.   As per @Penguin68's post above -  those cyclists going through lights are acting as pedestrians and not car drivers.

Anyway, the law is the law whether people like it or not - you don't get to pick and choose which laws you follow.   Cyclists should stop at red lights and not cycle on the pavements.   Car drivers shouldn't use their phones and speed.   Pedestrians shouldn't drop litter and graffiti walls.   Bus passengers shouldn't verbally abuse bus drivers.  Until the law changes people should follow it.

[PeckhamNicola]

It is safer to cycle on a red light and get a headstart over the motorists, rather than to set off at the same time as them and have them all impatiently overtaking / getting too close behind you. It makes you much more visible to the motorists to be ahead rather than alongside, and you can get some speed up by the time they set off. There's a difference of course between doing this with due attention to pedestrians and/or cars coming through in the other direction, compared to cycling through at speed forcing pedestrians to jump out of the way.

Edited Monday at 11:09 by PeckhamNicola

[Hen123]

3 hours ago, Spartacus said:

Third post and its "what about cars" 

Read the title of the thread again then go start that question in you own different thread 🤔

I am genuinely trying to explore why cyclists often flount the rules and "because they do it" isn't an excuse 

If they jump off a cliff, would you ? 

It wasn’t what about cars. It was if you know the reason why ~90% car drivers flout the rules you should be able to work out why the minority of cyclists flout the rules. Do you? 

[ianr]

14 hours ago, Spartacus said:

Third post and its "what about cars" 

Read the title of the thread again then go start that question in you own different thread 🤔

I am genuinely trying to explore why cyclists often flount the rules and "because they do it" isn't an excuse 

If they jump off a cliff, would you ? 

Not flaunt, nor flount.  If you want to remind yourself what flaunting is (as in 'Ageing starlet flaunts her ...') and the Mail still allows access, just try their RH sidebar.  I thought of doing an automatic daily 'flaunt' count and graphing it as an index of something or other.   I've a 1957 Pocket Oxford Dictionary you're welcome to.

[Spartacus]

Oh and why the reference to the Mail? 

Was that a poorly executed attempt to pigeonhole me for trying to open a discussion concernimg others motivations? 

3/10 must try harder (as you appear to be schooling me) 

[Penguin68]

Yes, the OP meant to write flout (which was immediately changed in this post, as I was writing, to flour!) - autocorrect has a lot to answer for. We all know what was meant. 

[exdulwicher]

On 16/08/2025 at 12:02, Spartacus said:

Keep it civil, if you want to say "what about drivers" open your own thread and ask the question as this is looking for causes. 

Part of the issue is that you've immediately pigeonholed people according to a mode of transport and the world doesn't work in that black and white way. PEOPLE flout rules, no matter their mode of transport. But anyway...

The challenge with "cycling" (in all its many and varied forms) is that it doesn't fit into such easy pigeonholes very well. At one end of the scale, you've got what is basically an upwardly mobile pedestrian (and in fact for some people - elderly or disabled for example - it can be a form of mobility aid). Kids are another good example, they're basically just slightly faster moving pedestrians, a point that Penguin makes above ^^.

At the other end of the scale, a bike can (if ridden by a suitably experienced person) be little different from a vehicle and in fact much of the early (1970's / 80's) literature around cycling promoted what is termed "vehicular cycling", the largely debunked and pretty terrible idea that cyclists should behave like cars on the roads.

In the middle of all that, you've got a range of infrastructure that on the one hand specifically says "here you are, ride on this pavement!"
https://live.staticflickr.com/7235/7055174953_c208169421_b.jpg

(not my pic, just off Google Images)

It's hardly surprising that when that shared use foot / cycle path ends, some people will continue riding along the pavemet, whether they know they're supposed tt be there or not.

And on the other hand it abandons cyclists at a junction or similar where highways people / the council have gone "nah, too complicated and expensive to do anything for cyclists there..." and expects people to work it out themselves / be brave enough to sit in the middle of a 4 lane junction waiting to turn right while all cars and trucks do the same inches away and where it can be easier and safer to do what a pedestrian might do at a quiet time - nip across in the gaps.

And finally - conservation of momentum. This is at last beginning to be recognised in cycling design manuals. Every time you stop, get going again it adds an effective 300m to a journey in terms of effort. Once you've been through 4 sets of dumb lights that don't recognise cyclists, that aren't phased for that speed, that make you wait while you could easily nip through to turn left, you'll be doing whatpedestrians do when they're forced to wait at a pedestrian crossing for ages until the green man shows - many will get bored of waiting and "nip across". That is another bit of terrible highway design, the crossing button forcing people to wait until the light detects that there's minimal traffic - in effect the light is prioritising a driver a quarter a mile away over you standing there right now.

Actually there's one more which I've mentioned previously and which gets noted above as well. Hire bike riders are all being charged per minute, delivery riders are paid per drop and not many of them are going to sit at a set of lights and be charged for the privilege when you can effectively become a pedestrian for a few seconds.

And by the way I'm not condoning any of the above. You asked for an explanation - there are several factors in it but that ^^ is some of it.

Maybe I should now start a thread asking why drivers flout the rules and see how quickly that turns into a "...but cyclists...!" thread... 😉

Edited Tuesday at 08:24 by exdulwicher
hyperlink / picture embed

[Moovart]

3 hours ago, exdulwicher said:

Actually there's one more which I've mentioned previously and which gets noted above as well. Hire bike riders are all being charged per minute, delivery riders are paid per drop and not many of them are going to sit at a set of lights and be charged for the privilege when you can effectively become a pedestrian for a few seconds.

Although yesterday a delivery guy on an electric motorised bike stopped at a red light crossing and waited for me to cross while a dickhead in lycra and helmet sped up and swung across the road to go over the crossing behind me at speed.  So it's probably just dickheads and danger seekers ride dangerously and others don't.  🤔

[alice]

Every single time I cross at lights, I have to slow down and look down the left side of the bus or the car or the truck to see if  a cyclist is shooting up there. 

 

[maddison]

Some people just don't use their brains when cycling. I don't see a problem with a cyclist jumping the light if there are no cars coming. It's just a few of them that cause problems for everyone by clogging up the road instead of using the cycle lane to the left of them.

[malumbu]

There is no compulsion to use the cycle Lane.  Explain what you mean.  If you mean the Advanced Stop Lane then that is advantageous for cyclists providing there is space (including the occasional motorist flouting the rules).  Position in the road depends on the width of the road, parked cars and the like and in many occasions in urban areas cyclists should be in the centre of the lane.  Many road users are ignorant of the Highway Code.  Apart from some extra rules and guidance for cyclists, horse riders and pedestrians, and restrictions on some roads to motorised vehicles (eg motorways) the Highway Code does not distinguish between different road users.  Better awareness and information for the masses is valuable rather than forgetting much of it once you have had training, passed the driving test and the like.  I welcome your view that you are not bothered by cyclists and red lights if there are no cars (and by extension pedestrians at crossings) that is refreshing for this forum.  

[Rockets]

3 hours ago, malumbu said:

Apart from some extra rules and guidance for cyclists, horse riders and pedestrians, and restrictions on some roads to motorised vehicles (eg motorways) the Highway Code does not distinguish between different road users. 

Except for the hierarchy of road users of course, which was brought in in 2022, where the larger, faster vehicle has greater responsibility to reduce risk to others.

@exdulwicher I agree with the conservation of momentum point you raise and I often see cyclists doing stupid things who just can't be bothered to stop.

There is also another phenomenon that may be happening here as well (which I think TFL called out when they did some research on red light jumping cyclists) which is the pack mentality and the, "well if they do it I will too". I think TFL said that they were concerned that the problem grows rapidly because it is contagious. I have often felt hugely pressurised to move when a light is red by the impatient people behind me or those whizzing by me (I have even got into arguments with other cyclists over the issue).

I also feel it is these behaviours that are driving the increasing frustration many people have with cyclists as they see increasing numbers of them ignoring the rules and treating roads (and pavements) as if they are the only ones using them.

As far as I am concerned the rules are there to not only protect others from me but to protect me from others and I often see cyclists doing things that, if their luck runs out one day, will see them in hospital or worse. 

 

[exdulwicher]

17 hours ago, Rockets said:

@exdulwicher I agree with the conservation of momentum point you raise and I often see cyclists doing stupid things who just can't be bothered to stop.

About 10 years ago now there was a crackdown in San Francisco on this "rolling through stop signs" thing (Americans preferring Stop signs over red lights at many junctions but the principle is basically the same, the law requires all road users to actually stop, check it's clear to go and then proceed).

There'd been a load of backlash about increased numbers of cyclists just rolling through so - with a bit of coordination from a couple of cycling advocacy groups - they got all the riders along one notorious stretch to obey the rules to the letter. Single file. Each rider came to a stop (causing everyone behind to also stop), then they proceeded and the next rider did the same.

It gridlocked the road almost immediately.

https://www.lifegate.com/san-francisco-cyclists-protest-against-rules

It's why the Idaho Stop rules (treat a red light as a Stop, treat a Stop as a Give Way) makes so much sense, one of the main instances where trying to treat a bicycle as either a pedestrian or a car simply doesn't work, it needs to be understood as something in between those things.

[alice]

When I lived in San Francisco, it wasn’t flat. 

[Dulwichway]

"Why do cyclists flaunt the rules"  because they can with no consequences! going through red lights all day long without a care in the world and no respect for other road users or pedestrians alike. If a motor vehicle did the same day in day out a big fine and a ban would soon follow. 

[malumbu]

That's a rant not a discussion point.  You sound rather angry.  There are many great things about cycling.  I'll say more about the subject when I get time. 

PS whilst this thread is about cyclists you brought drivers into the equation.  Most drivers flout the rules, in particular the speed limit.  

[Hen123]

24 minutes ago, Dulwichway said:

"Why do cyclists flaunt the rules"  because they can with no consequences! going through red lights all day long without a care in the world and no respect for other road users or pedestrians alike. If a motor vehicle did the same day in day out a big fine and a ban would soon follow. 

Really? https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2023/08/24/85-of-car-drivers-break-20mph-speed-limits-reveals-uks-department-for-transport/

[Dulwichway]

10 minutes ago, malumbu said:

That's a rant not a discussion point.  You sound rather angry.  

No, not a rant, just pointing out a fact.

I'm not actually angry, (just helping the forum along☺️) just slightly annoyed that rules apply to some and not others.

2 minutes ago, Hen123 said:

Really? https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2023/08/24/85-of-car-drivers-break-20mph-speed-limits-reveals-uks-department-for-transport/

Thanks for the cut & paste.

 

On a more dangerous note, do motor vehicle drivers hurtle through red lights on a regular basis?

26 minutes ago, malumbu said:

You sound rather angry.  

Careful! never surmise, would hate to see you get another EDF suspension! as some of your posts are hilarious😁

[Hen123]

26 minutes ago, Dulwichway said:

No, not a rant, just pointing out a fact.

I'm not actually angry, (just helping the forum along☺️) just slightly annoyed that rules apply to some and not others.

Thanks for the cut & paste.

 

On a more dangerous note, do motor vehicle drivers hurtle through red lights on a regular basis?

Careful! never surmise, would hate to see you get another EDF suspension! as some of your posts are hilarious😁

 

[malumbu]

30 minutes ago, Dulwichway said:

No, not a rant, just pointing out a fact.

I'm not actually angry, (just helping the forum along☺️) just slightly annoyed that rules apply to some and not others.

Thanks for the cut & paste.

 

On a more dangerous note, do motor vehicle drivers hurtle through red lights on a regular basis?

Careful! never surmise, would hate to see you get another EDF suspension! as some of your posts are hilarious😁

"going through red lights all day long without a care in the world and no respect for other road users or pedestrians alike. If a motor vehicle did the same day in day out a big fine and a ban would soon follow."

A generalisation not a fact.   Others may wish to discuss the topic.  You have just posted a one sized fits all view, which suggests you are rather blinkered in your views.  Most cyclists have respect for other road users.  Most are also have driving licenses and virtually all are pedestrians as well.  I suggest that you open your mind.