Fly the flag

[Angelina]

You can read it to be that everyone who flies a flag is racist and anti all immigration if you want, but that isn’t the case and it’s a very extreme view.

It’s very dangerous to go down that road and dismiss real issues because you don’t agree with them.

The law around immigration is being amended, as it is widely known that the laws were set when immigration levels were lower, not the levels of today and the future.

 

 

[Sue]

9 hours ago, Dulwichway said:

"church parade" ? lol! religion is for the lesser minded folk. Most countries worldwide has a flag that represents them and is proudly flown, no harm it that surely? it does represent our patriotism, don't confuse it with separatism, my friends and mixed race family are angry the way the left wing media are destroying mergence.

The difficulty is that the English flag is now irretrievably (in my mind anyway)  associated with racist violent thugs.

Obviously not everyone who flies it or carries it or displays it on their clothing  is a racist violent thug, but unfortunately when I (and probably others) see it flown or worn, that is what comes to mind.

And religion is many things to many people, but to say it's for the "lesser minded" folk says more about you than about them.

Edited 11 hours ago by Sue

[Angelina]

That’s a very unhealthy view.  Particularly when the very top echelons admit that the immigration law is out of date and not relevant and is being amended as we speak.

 

 

[Sue]

50 minutes ago, Angelina said:

You can read it to be that everyone who flies a flag is racist and anti all immigration if you want, but that isn’t the case and it’s a very extreme view.

It’s very dangerous to go down that road and dismiss real issues because you don’t agree with them.

The law around immigration is being amended, as it is widely known that the laws were set when immigration levels were lower, not the levels of today and the future.

 

 

Certainly there are issues with  immigration which need to be addressed, but setting fire to buildings with immigrants in them is not the way to address them.

Many (not all) of these people are fleeing from terrible situations in their own countries, and I can't even imagine what it must be like to finally reach somewhere where they hope they will be safe only to be "greeted" with violence and hostility.

It makes me ashamed to be English, not proud.

And yes, some of these people are here illegally, some of them are criminals or perpetrate attacks on women or whatever. And are dealt with accordingly.

I read recently, and I don't know if it is true, that over 60% of the men arrested at the scene of attacks on immigrants and their temporary homes have previous convictions for  or are known to the police for domestic violence.

Maybe look at yourselves first, eh, before trying to imply that because a few  immigrants commit a crime here therefore they are all criminals and shouldn't be allowed into our country.

Why would someone fly the English flag in the present climate for any reason apart from being anti immigration? 

Just now, Angelina said:

That’s a very unhealthy view.  Particularly when the very top echelons admit that the immigration law is out of date and not relevant and is being amended as we speak.

 

 

What is a very unhealthy view? Are you replying to me?

Yes the immigration law badly needs to be amended. I completely agree.

I don't think I've said anything which implies otherwise?

[Jenijenjen]

I remember in the 70s the Union Jack was similarly appropriated by the National Front and later the British Party, I regarded it in the same way many perceive the St George's flag today. The Union Jack went through a period of rehabilitation in the 90s and probably viewed more positively by the left today.

I wonder though if the anti immigration groups who have appropriated the St George;s flag realise that St George was born in what is modern day Turkey.

[Angelina]

It's regrettable that impact of the various topics of immigration have escalated to the level that people have to protest their unhappiness and that laws have to be rewritten, and yet people complain that those protesting are racist. 

 

 

 

[Insuflo]

1 hour ago, Sue said:

I read recently, and I don't know if it is true, that over 60% of the men arrested at the scene of attacks on immigrants and their temporary homes have previous convictions for  or are known to the police for domestic violence.

I think you may have read it here:

Two in five arrested for last summer’s UK riots had been reported for domestic abuse | Domestic violence | The Guardian 
 

[Sue]

1 hour ago, Insuflo said:

I think you may have read it here:

Two in five arrested for last summer’s UK riots had been reported for domestic abuse | Domestic violence | The Guardian 
 

I hadn't read that article. I think I read it in another article or post quoting figures which were possibly wrong.

1 hour ago, Angelina said:

It's regrettable that impact of the various topics of immigration have escalated to the level that people have to protest their unhappiness and that laws have to be rewritten, and yet people complain that those protesting are racist. 

 

 

 

Many of the people protesting their "unhappiness" appear to be racist.

They don't appear to protest about white immigrants from, say, Australia.

Nor do they come out waving flags to protest about, say, domestic violence by white men, unless you have evidence to the contrary?

Edited 9 hours ago by Sue

[Angelina]

There have been recent changes to the law regarding immigration, for skilled workers, social care workers, dependents, English language requirements and further changes are underway.

If these changes were not necessary to address problems, they wouldn't need to be done.

As it is, protest does raise awareness of the issues - public interest in various matters is measured, and prioritised accordingly. Previously, it was public concern about energy prices, and cost of living - and at that time, immigration and the claims process were not on the 'list'.

They are now.

 

 

[Spartacus]

I miss the good old days where guides and scouts saluted the flag at the start of a meeting, old soldiers proudly ran a flag up every morning and it was seen as a symbol of pride, not division 

What has happened to the world? 

[Earl Aelfheah]

There have always been union flags displayed all over the city (e.g. regents street, oxford street, the mall etc). They're done properly, placed appropriately, and well maintained. No one has a problem with genuine displays of patriotism. Spray painting roundabouts and hanging cheap flags from motorway bridges in response to a campaign organised by well known right wing extremists is not about patriotism and I don't think anyone really believes it is.

What exactly are these concerns around immigration? They seem to be largely based on the idea that immigration is costing the economy (it actually boosts public finances and contributes to economic growth) and fears of crime (again there is no evidence that immigrants are more likely to commit crime, in fact research suggest that those born in the UK are). It's also worth noting that immigration has actually been falling.

Largely, this comes down to xenophobia and racism, fed by misinformation from the usual suspects - for example the 'Centre for Migration Control' (which is actually just one person, the Reform UK activist Robert Bates), and which regularly seeds fake / made up statistics to GB News etc. which then get repeated by the Telegraph etc.

It blows my mind that people like Farage, who's Brexit actually did significantly damage our economy and led to a massive rise in irregular migration, is still being given the time of day.

Edited 8 hours ago by Earl Aelfheah

[malumbu]

22 minutes ago, Spartacus said:

I miss the good old days where guides and scouts saluted the flag at the start of a meeting, old soldiers proudly ran a flag up every morning and it was seen as a symbol of pride, not division 

What has happened to the world? 

Have you read Scouting for Boys by Baden Powell?  Racist and full of right-wing ideology; the movement has a historical association with colonialism and authoritarian regimes.

Whilst you can say it was of its time, the Scouting movement has fortunately long since moved on,  

[Spartacus]

16 minutes ago, malumbu said:

Have you read Scouting for Boys by Baden Powell? 

I saw scouting for girls play once, does that count ? 

[Angelina]

The current issues around immigration are fuelled by the housing of asylum seekers who have appealed the decision that they are not eligible for asylum.

Although  quite sure you would know that as it’s all over the news.

The process is long and drawn out and is also undergoing change, with new body set up to process the backlog and expedite decisions, and reduce the need to put people up in hotels.

Speeding up the process is beneficial all round, as you can’t deny.

 

 

[Earl Aelfheah]

16 minutes ago, Angelina said:

The current issues around immigration are fuelled by the housing of asylum seekers who have appealed the decision that they are not eligible for asylum.

Although  quite sure you would know that as it’s all over the news.

The process is long and drawn out and is also undergoing change, with new body set up to process the backlog and expedite decisions, and reduce the need to put people up in hotels.

Speeding up the process is beneficial all round, as you can’t deny.

So people are upset in the delay processing applications? Great, I think we all agree that the system needs to be properly funded and that decisions made more quickly. But what's that got to do with spray painting St George's flag everywhere and why are people attacking asylum seekers and talking about 'taking their country back'?

Edited 6 hours ago by Earl Aelfheah

[Angelina]

All to do with the issues in Essex, with a child allegedly assaulted by and asylum seeker residing in a local hotel, ensuing community outrage, particularly with asylum seekers given priority over the community.

The whole thing is toxic. 

[Earl Aelfheah]

5 minutes ago, Angelina said:

particularly with asylum seekers given priority over the community.

What priority are asylum seekers being given over the community? 

Whilst it's terrible that a girl has been assaulted, why are the criminal actions of an individual being seen as reason to attack a whole group of people? Many of those involved in the 'raise the colours' campaign have criminal histories, including domestic violence. Perhaps there should also be community outrage at that, instead of those people apparently being lionised as 'patriots'.

There is a very clear attempt by the like of Farage etc. (who contributed significantly to the current 'crisis') to stir up unrest. The flag campaign has absolutely nothing to do with patriotism. I don't think anyone believes it does. 

Edited 6 hours ago by Earl Aelfheah

[Angelina]

The issue, with children starting school again, is that there is an unknown risk, and people want to know their children are safe, which they do not.

You know all of this, I don’t need to attempt to outline the views for you as it’s widely available. 

There is outrage at how some people are behaving. Did you not see women attacking a man being interviewed?

As with all things, the actions of a few is damaging.

[Earl Aelfheah]

I don't know all this. Children are starting school and people are scared because the children might be attacked by asylum seekers?

What do you think spray painting St George flags does to make children safer?

The flag campaign has absolutely nothing to do with patriotism, or about addressing male violence (many of those behind the campaign have violent criminal records themselves). It's about xenophobia, fear, and intimidation. 

The co-founder of the 'raise the colours' campaign, Andrew Currien, was a key member of the English Defence League’s leadership bodyguard team, and now runs security for the far-right party Britain First. He's previously been jailed for his part in a racist death.

Meanwhile, Farage has been openly willing a 'summer of violence on the streets', putting on his best 'concerned face', whilst using the 'Centre for Migration Control' (actually just one man the Reform UK activist Robert Bates), to seed fake / made up statistics and 'research reports' to GB News etc. about crime and immigration.

The reason that we've seen a huge increase in asylum hotels is because of the Conservatives deliberate policy of not processing applications and Farage's disastrous Brexit (which led to a massive increase in irregular immigration). We have the Right creating a crisis and then exploiting it for their advantage.

Edited 5 hours ago by Earl Aelfheah

[Angelina]

There are many sensitive and emotive issues. 

The backlog should be cleared, the temporary accomodation matter (location and cost) reduced and asylum seekers given decisions, which should clear things up.

[Earl Aelfheah]

10 minutes ago, Angelina said:

The backlog should be cleared, the temporary accomodation matter (location and cost) reduced and asylum seekers given decisions, which should clear things up.

This I absolutely agree with. 

Edited 5 hours ago by Earl Aelfheah

[Spartacus]

I guess Reeves will be supporting it as flag sales have gone up therefore taxes raised will increase 

Unless they are all made in a country with poor human rights standards and sent through the post so dont attract tax.

[tedfudge]

Nothing wrong with flying the national flags and being proud... its not just white people who are going to these demonstrations flying the flags so cant be racist it'd called being a patriot 

[Earl Aelfheah]

Nothing wrong with flying a flag, or being patriotic. But what is it you’re ’demonstrating’ against exactly? And who has organised those ‘demonstrations’? What have they got to do with patriotism exactly? 

Edited 5 hours ago by Earl Aelfheah

[Angelina]

perhaps your view that everyone is demonstrating against something is skewing your perception.