Pride in place

[Spartacus]

There was mention yesterday, which may have slipped by some, that the Goverment is about to launch a "pride in place" £5 billion investment into city and town centres to boost high streets, parks and public spaces.

I can see two flaws with this.

Firstly it's a sticking plaster over a problem that the government doesn't seem to want to tackle. The decline of town centres is largely down to the impact caused by large players including the Internet giants, (non bricks and morter), who seem not to be paying the appropriate amount of taxes or even bypassing them by sending small value items into the UK. Until the playing field is leveled to give high streets an equal chance, consumers will naturally go for the best price. This would also increase the tax revenue the Chancellor has to play with and keep money in the local economy .

Second issue I see is that when we are all staring down the barrel of a potential £30 billion tax hike in the budget, is this the right time to be announcing even more spending. Feels that maybe waiting till the economy is tracking better would be prudent. 

Of course the argument could be, improving the town centre realm , improves consumer confidence to shop locally, but unless the first point is fixed it could be a case of throwing bad money after good. 

 BBC News - Which areas are due to get share of £5bn funding boost? - BBC News

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c1mx8vr2gr1o

 

[Angelina]

when high streets are filled with betting shops, pound shops, empty sites and just run down - as is the case in many places - of course people don't want to go there - either for essentials or to hang out or shop-shop.

a multi-fronted approach is exactly what is needed - upgrade the areas, encourage footfall, encourage new shops etc - BUT that has to be supported by consumers - who need to stop being lazy with amazon and home deliveries and make better choices.

 

 

[Jenijenjen]

It is not laziness that sends me shopping on the Internet, it's also the better choice, better prices, and also the availability of items impossible to obtain either locally or in central London. I try to avoid Amazon for both ethical and quality issues. 

The internet has enabled many small businesses to trade which would not have been possible before, surely that's a good thing. 

The genie is well out of the bottle.

[Angelina]

If that better choice, better price and better availability were available locally instead of being delivered - what choice would you make?

Not everyone makes ethical choices yet consumers have all the power.

If you realised that your changing your consumer decisions could directly impact the environment around you, would you make different choices?

[Jenijenjen]

I'm not going to answer a hypothetical question about an imaginary outcome.

[Angelina]

I'll take that as a No then.

It's not as "imaginary" as you think, to understand the impact online shopping has on communities and local environments. That's well known.

[Jenijenjen]

10 minutes ago, Angelina said:

 

It's not as "imaginary" as you think, to understand the impact online shopping has on communities and local environments. That's well known.

This is not what I am referring to as imaginary, more that to reverse this trend shoppers would be prepared to go back to high street shopping

- To pay more

- Endure the irritation, inconvenience and time spent real life shopping

- and to have far, far far less choice. To shop in bricks and mortar shops means the shopkeeper is to a certain extent making preliminary choices for us.

As I said before, the genie is out of the bottle.

[Spartacus]

48 minutes ago, Jenijenjen said:

This is not what I am referring to as imaginary, more that to reverse this trend shoppers would be prepared to go back to high street shopping

- To pay more

- Endure the irritation, inconvenience and time spent real life shopping

- and to have far, far far less choice. To shop in bricks and mortar shops means the shopkeeper is to a certain extent making preliminary choices for us.

As I said before, the genie is out of the bottle.

Would you also say that the £5billion investment won't have the desired impact as shoppers prefer online ? 

[alice]

Internet will never replace face-to-face shopping   These  derelict  shopping centres still exist but they’re filled with crap shops  antisocial behaviour et cetera et cetera we don’t have them here that’s why we’re not getting the money

currently about 25% of are spending is online. 

Edited September 26 by alice
info

[Jenijenjen]

@Spartacus It seems a very complex subject and I have no knowledge of the places awarded money but pride of place has many more ingredients than retail. 

Edited September 26 by Jenijenjen

[malumbu]

We've all noticed how once grotty town centres have improved and gentrified over the last decade or so, Deptford, Peckham, Honor Oak, Brockley.  Just count the bars and coffee shops.  Catford is going that way and Lewisham and Forest Hill next.  We are in an affluent area, and the above is more relevant to forgotten towns and areas. 

[Angelina]

That’s right. Some places are very grim and will definitely benefit. People need nice community spaces and safe places to shop and wander about

[Spartacus]

Is there a view from people on "should Internet only based retail businesses be taxed in a fairer way to level the field for bricks snd moryer businesses?" 

[Sephiroth]

1 hour ago, malumbu said:

We've all noticed how once grotty town centres have improved and gentrified over the last decade or so, Deptford, Peckham, Honor Oak, Brockley.  Just count the bars and coffee shops.  Catford is going that way and Lewisham and Forest Hill next.  We are in an affluent area, and the above is more relevant to forgotten towns and areas. 

Of course as these places revive, for the reasons you correctly state, there is no shortage of people moaning “just what we need. Another coffee shop or bar!”

and of course there are limits.  But social spaces are the future of revived town centres as much as or more than traditional retail 

Face to face shopping is important and a good thing but landlords are not going to swallow the lower rents that are required to revive retail in town centres 

shopkeeers don’t help themselves either sometimes. Yer famous butcher in Dulwich spent more time complaining about congestion charge in Kennington instead of saying how that led to his business booming in Dulwich 

On the other hand again look  what happened when his butcher shop took off in lordship lane.  Other people started moaning about the queues!! 
Successful business!!! Boo hiss

 

sometimes I do wonder if the “left behind” find themselves in that position not because of govt policy or newcomers  but because they will never be happy and become pains in the hole which business and other people avoid 

[Spartacus]

1 hour ago, Sephiroth said:

Of course as these places revive, for the reasons you correctly state, there is no shortage of people moaning “just what we need. Another coffee shop or bar!”

and of course there are limits.  But social spaces are the future of revived town centres as much as or more than traditional retail 

Face to face shopping is important and a good thing but landlords are not going to swallow the lower rents that are required to revive retail in town centres 

shopkeeers don’t help themselves either sometimes. Yer famous butcher in Dulwich spent more time complaining about congestion charge in Kennington instead of saying how that led to his business booming in Dulwich 

On the other hand again look  what happened when his butcher shop took off in lordship lane.  Other people started moaning about the queues!! 
Successful business!!! Boo hiss

 

sometimes I do wonder if the “left behind” find themselves in that position not because of govt policy or newcomers  but because they will never be happy and become pains in the hole which business and other people avoid 

This feels like you have never worked in retail or understand the pressures retail businesses have 😅

[malumbu]

I'm talking about parts of the country economically deprived, some that never recovered from the loss of traditional industries.

But in your point, yes, there are those that are never happy.  We should be reasonably happy in this area.

[Insuflo]

The root of all these problems is that the model of capitalism pursued in this country for the last 45 years has failed utterly. It’s only true beneficiaries inhabit an ever decreasing circle of have-lots in a sea of have-nots, defended by an increasingly squeezed band of born at the right time boomers, which surely cannot hold. 

[Sephiroth]

23 minutes ago, Spartacus said:

This feels like you have never worked in retail or understand the pressures retail businesses have 😅

In what sense? Be more specific 

(and I have worked in retail and hospitality) 

nothing I said is in any way anti-retail as far as I can see 

7 minutes ago, Insuflo said:

The root of all these problems is that the model of capitalism pursued in this country for the last 45 years has failed utterly. It’s only true beneficiaries inhabit an ever decreasing circle of have-lots in a sea of have-nots, defended by an increasingly squeezed band of born at the right time boomers, which surely cannot hold. 

Out of interest and for comparison, which country do you think gets it right to a significant degree?

[jazzer]

Don't know about Lordship Lane, but Rye Lane 50 years ago would be four deep on the pavement on a Saturday, not no more then. 

Amazon and the supermarket home delivery services have one heck of a lot to answer for. Stop using them, get back to the shops before the choice becomes so limited. In fact, do one thing, ditch using Amazon. 

[malumbu]

Large supermarkets, the big shop, not relying on mum getting the bus into town, longer opening hours, end of price controls and other restrictions.  All affected the high street well before the internet.  

Rye Lane is still pretty buzzy.  Loads of independent shops.  Modern life is not always rubbish 

[Insuflo]

36 minutes ago, jazzer said:

Don't know about Lordship Lane, but Rye Lane 50 years ago 

I remember when all this was fields.

1 hour ago, Sephiroth said:

Out of interest and for comparison, which country do you think gets it right to a significant degree?

The United Kingdom between 1945 and 1979. For good and ill.

[Sephiroth]

A lot of this is down to why the high street came into being in the first place 

consumer demand 

And now times has changed and consumers behave differently.  And businesses adapt to that.  It’s a bottom up approach as opposed to something imposed upon us.  

It’s not to my tastes. But what do people expect to happen.  Jazzer is on to something when he says boycott Amazon - but the reality is even many who boycott Amazon choose other or more ethical alternatives. But still online 

going into town for “a shop” just isn’t what people do anymore 

6 minutes ago, Insuflo said:

I remember when all this was fields.

The United Kingdom between 1945 and 1979. For good and ill.

Yeah but that’s not a real comparison. And “for ill” glosses over a lot of wrong as well 

but we live in 2025 now and any of us oldies who think when we were 20 was the best time ever, a time we should go back to are just pining for our youths 

there is no country in the world that can turn back the clock.  So in 2025, where is the closest vision of somewhere you would like.  Because if you look globally you don’t just get capitalism.  You can choose dictatorships or communism too 

[Insuflo]

2 hours ago, Sephiroth said:

 

Yeah but that’s not a real comparison. And “for ill” glosses over a lot of wrong as well 

but we live in 2025 now and any of us oldies who think when we were 20 was the best time ever, a time we should go back to are just pining for our youths 

Yeah, who doesn’t pine for their youth?
But it doesn’t alter the fact that in that in the post war period, chopping and changing as we were between Labour and Tory governments, there was still a collective consensus that the country and society was going inevitably forward to something better.

Until that cow faced bitch and her minions came in to power in ‘79 and we have been living with the consequences ever since.

“There is no such thing as society, there is only individuals and families”

Edited September 26 by Insuflo

[David Peckham]

Looking at the areas which will be receiving funds, there seems to be a couple of pretty fundamental flaws with the scheme.

In many of these areas, spend isn't migrating from high streets to online, there simply isn't any disposable income to migrate. No amount of tarting a place up is going to change the fact that these places are the poorest and most deprived in country - people simply have nothing to spend.

Secondly, a lot of these areas no longer have an extant retail infrastructure to improve upon - it went donkey's years ago, along with the pubs.

My childhood high street is getting a grant. Maybe they'll liven up Market Street by celebrating our notable locals - they could commission a Ricky Hatton mural, a statue of The Moors Murderers or a 'Walk of Shame' pavement for Harold Shipman's victims (it's quite a long street).

But, whatever it is, I doubt it's going to show a decent return when the only businesses still trading are 'Bargain Booze' outlets, Bangladeshi takeaways, bookies and barbers.

[malumbu]

Good idea for a theme park.  Obviously that would be in bad taste.  Although you can do the Jack the Ripper, Kray twins and no doubt other tours in London.

Surely there are mobile/vape shops too