Digital ID

[malumbu]

Whilst instinctively I'm against this I already have a government ID, pay my taxes through this, renew my passport and driving licence.

Polling suggests a slight majority will support this 

It would be good to get views on the concept rather than the politics.

Let's see how long that lasts!

We can talk the politics at the Forum drinks.

[Jenijenjen]

I have no problem with it. Don't understand why civil liberties groups are against it and why there has been so much historic resistance to the introduction of ID cards. We already have passports, surely not so very different?

[Insuflo]

If you and I already have various government id and use them effectively, why do we need another? 
I need to travel abroad, then I use my passport. I need to drive, I need my licence. I need to check my tax, NI or whatever online, I need a government id. This is all fair enough.

However, I should not have to and I will not produce my papers on demand for simply existing in my country. 

Illegal employers currently exploiting migrants without physical id will continue to do so, knowing the worst consequences they will face is that their limited company might be fined.  

Can you imagine what misuses a Farage government might put a compulsory id system to?

Opposition to what may well become this government’s Poll Tax will be considerable. The petition to parliament is already up to 2.5 million:

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/730194

 

Edited 3 hours ago by Insuflo

[Sue]

29 minutes ago, Insuflo said:

If you and I already have various government id and use them effectively, why do we need another? 
I need to travel abroad, then I use my passport. I need to drive, I need my licence. I need to check my tax, NI or whatever online, I need a government id. This is all fair enough.

However, I should not have to and I will not produce my papers on demand for simply existing in my country. 

Illegal employers currently exploiting migrants without physical id will continue to do so, knowing the worst consequences they will face is that their limited company might be fined.  

Can you imagine what misuses a Farage government might put a compulsory id system to?

Opposition to what may well become this government’s Poll Tax will be considerable. The petition to parliament is already up to 2.5 million:

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/730194

 

Not everyone has a passport. Not everyone has a driving licence.

If you have nothing to hide, I can't see the problem.

And hypothetical assumptions about what a future government might do could apply to many things. That is not a good reason not to do them (imo).

If Farage forms a government we will have plenty to worry about apart from digital ID.

[David Peckham]

It's difficult to keep politics completely out of it, if only to look who its most vehement opponents are; Farage, Corbyn, the Tories, the Lib-Dems, the Unionist parties of Northern Ireland, and civil liberties organisations like Liberty. That's a hell of a broad church - it seems to vex different people for different reasons.

I don't really have a problem with ID cards ideologically, but large government organisations don't have a great track record in implementing large scale IT systems,. The Post Office and the NHS stand out - hugely expensive systems which either didn't perform or were written off.

Data security is a concern - there seems to be arguments both for & against it making identity fraud both easier and more difficult, but the majority of adults in the UK have given away so much personal data on Facebook etc, that they're pretty wide open to being cloned anyway.

Other than Switzerland and Denmark, we're the only country in Europe that doesn't have them. so there should be be enough learnings from other systems to have a reasonable debate about their merits, or otherwise.

My major concern is that after politicians debate it ad nauseum, civil servants carry out a tedious tendering process and the Information Architects start arguing amongst themselves, the world will have moved on so much that whatever was originally signed off will be very expensive, anachronistic white elephant.

 

Edited 2 hours ago by David Peckham

[Insuflo]

15 minutes ago, Sue said:

If you have nothing to hide, I can't see the problem 

Incredible. So bring back the Sus Laws, then?  

[David Peckham]

1 hour ago, Insuflo said:

 

However, I should not have to and I will not produce my papers on demand for simply existing in my country. 
  
Can you imagine what misuses a Farage government might put a compulsory id system to?

 

It wouldn't be mandatory to carry it and Farage is one of the biggest critics of digital ID cards.

Genuinely, and maybe I'm being naive, but what nefarious stuff do you think it could be used for?

[malumbu]

49 minutes ago, David Peckham said:

It's difficult to keep politics completely out of it, if only to look who its most vehement opponents are; Farage, Corbyn, the Tories, the Lib-Dems, the Unionist parties of Northern Ireland, and civil liberties organisations like Liberty. That's a hell of a broad church - it seems to vex different people for different reasons.

I don't really have a problem with ID cards ideologically, but large government organisations don't have a great track record in implementing large scale IT systems,. The Post Office and the NHS stand out - hugely expensive systems which either didn't perform or were written off.

Steering clear of politics... whoops... odd that Tories and Farige are against this.

Government has an excellent record of providing digital services, self assessment for example has improved ten fold since I first did it on line 20 years ago.

Where they outsource it willy nilly that can be a disaster.  The outsourcing of Covid testing for when you returned from abroad was appalling, clunky systems provided by AAAAAAA testing, based in outer space (US by the whole nature of the front end).

[Earl Aelfheah]

I think that when it comes to privacy and surveillance, the ship has already sailed. Most of us carry a mobile phone everywhere, pay for things digitally, buy things and access services online, are tracked by CCTV and APNR etc.

[Insuflo]

6 minutes ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

Most of us carry a mobile phone everywhere, pay for things digitally, buy things and access services online, are tracked by CCTV and APNR etc.

Yes, I do all of those things as a matter of choice and for my personal convenience. Being compelled to have identity papers, digital or otherwise is another matter entirely.

There is no need for a compulsory id system, it is totally unnecessary. It plays into the notion that immigration is the greatest threat facing this country and the root of all problems- it is not.

[alice]

As it won’t stop any person working illegally/ without paying tax  - what’s the point? 

[Sephiroth]

One of those times when I as a non-Brit look at all of you on all political sides with your full puffed-out “I’m a free person in a free country sir! I will never, never I say… “ etc etc 

basically the full Boris Johnson schtick

Now it must be said that this gov and its stated reasons for the card (the Brit card.  FFS) is the usual unworkable nonsense 

that being said, people from other countries long ago discovered the benefit of joined up govt and are doing fine.  So let’s all stop clutching pearls, point out flaws in contradictory thinking and just get on with it. Sure, this country being this country will fudge and kludge and basically produce a c- version. But still 

a farage govt will not be able to do any more damage with an id card than without.  I think that line of thinking is emotive nonsense tbh 

comparisons with poll tax are weird and the petition being up to 2.5 million should be a source of embarrassment tbh

[CPR Dave]

I don't think it's right for the government to force people to buy a smart phone so that they can go to work. 

I also don't trust the government to put an app on people's phones without being tempted to steal private information by listening through the microphone, looking through your photos, looking through your location data etc. all of which permissions will no doubt be needed to to be given to the app so that it (and therefore you) can work. 

 

On the politics, I think the hectoring, condescending delivery of the message was appalling. " This government will make digital ID mandatory for the right to work... Let me spell that out. You will not be able to work in the United Kingdom if you do not have digital ID. It's a simple as that."

He seems to have forgotten that he is Prime Minister and not the Reich Chancellor or the Generalisimus. He serves us. He doesn't lecture us like a dictator forcing compliance with intrusive governance for which he has no democratic mandate whatsoever.

The right to work in this country is a birth right. No Prime Minister has the power to stop people working for refusing to own a smart phone or to download a Dictator's app.

[David Peckham]

1 hour ago, malumbu said:

Steering clear of politics... whoops... odd that Tories and Farige are against this.

But also Corbyn and Liberty. It clearly elicits very strong feelings across the board, and I'm at a loss to know why. I'm fairly ambivalent to it, but cynical about its benefits and implementation. I certainly don't subscribe to the idea that it's the tool of a police state, which some seem to think.

1 hour ago, malumbu said:

 

Government has an excellent record of providing digital services, self assessment for example has improved ten fold since I first did it on line 20 years ago.

Oh, give over. The NHS patient data project was a complete Horlicks, and that, at the time, was the world's largest civilian computer system.

1 hour ago, malumbu said:

 

Where they outsource it willy nilly that can be a disaster.  The outsourcing of Covid testing for when you returned from abroad was appalling, clunky systems provided by AAAAAAA testing, based in outer space (US by the whole nature of the front end).

Surely all similar large public projects are outsourced to some extent? The government simply doesn't have the capacity or expertise to carry out this scale of work in house.

And as everyone knows, there's no such thing as bad work, only a bad client brief.

There are potentially a lot of benefits to actually sharing more data through the ID scheme, in terms of more efficient budget allocation to services for a start, but I doubt the debate will get that far because of the 'Big Brother' obsession of some people.

Edited 19 minutes ago by David Peckham

[Sephiroth]

I don’t think having a digital id is the same thing as requiring people to have a mobile phone 

but if you are someone looking for work in this country and don’t have access to a phone or a computer already, regardless of any govt scheme, then I dunno man.  Can’t see that being very many people at all. If any 

[CPR Dave]

The other extremely inept political approach in the delivery of this policy, out of the blue, was calling it a BritCard and somehow expecting Irish citizens working in Northern Ireland to get on board with the idea. 

Edited 20 minutes ago by CPR Dave

[Insuflo]

Let’s arm the police. They carry guns everywhere else in Europe. Let’s abolish trial by jury, they don’t bother with juries in France. I’m going to drive on the right, every other European country does. 

[CPR Dave]

2 minutes ago, Sephiroth said:

I don’t think having a digital id is the same thing as requiring people to have a mobile phone 

 

How does it work without a smart phone Sephiroth?

Edited 20 minutes ago by CPR Dave

[malumbu]

There are many digital systems that work very well for government.  Most of us would not expect to fill out a form and post it.  Credit due where credit is due.  This I am sure post dates the NHS debacle.

Corbyn has opposed virtually everything that governments propose including Labour.  So you can ignore home.  It is Liberty's job to oppose schemes like this.  

Government outsourced the running of the COVID testing for travellers entering England.  It was dreadful.

1 minute ago, Insuflo said:

Let’s arm the police. They carry guns everywhere else in Europe. Let’s abolish trial by jury, they don’t bother with juries in France. I’m going to drive on the right, every other European country does. 

That's Barmy.  The Romans drove on the left.  We are correct.  The rest of the world should rightly follow our lead.  Whoops I've gone off topic in my win thread.

[Insuflo]

21 minutes ago, Sephiroth said:

comparisons with poll tax are weird and the petition being up to 2.5 million should be a source of embarrassment tbh

Not if you remember the introduction of the Poll Tax. It galvanised a massive opposition, which eventually persuaded the Tories to bin Thatcher. It could be an anti-Starmer /Reeves focus within the labour movement.

[malumbu]

9 minutes ago, CPR Dave said:

The other extremely inept political approach in the delivery of this policy, out of the blue, was calling it a BritCard and somehow expecting Irish citizens working in Northern Ireland to get on board with the idea. 

Most will be pragmatic apart from extreme nationalists who generally live in the UK rather than ROI.  And gov is proposing cards for those with no smart phones.  Best to read up on the subject rather than jump to conclusions 

1 hour ago, alice said:

As it won’t stop any person working illegally/ without paying tax  - what’s the point? 

It will, the extent and whether it is worth it is of course another question.

[David Peckham]

12 minutes ago, malumbu said:

There are many digital systems that work very well for government.  Most of us would not expect to fill out a form and post it.  Credit due where credit is due.  This I am sure post dates the NHS debacle.

Corbyn has opposed virtually everything that governments propose including Labour.  So you can ignore home.  It is Liberty's job to oppose schemes like this.  

Government outsourced the running of the COVID testing for travellers entering England.  It was dreadful.

That's Barmy.  The Romans drove on the left.  We are correct.  The rest of the world should rightly follow our lead.  Whoops I've gone off topic in my win thread.

 

You, yourself, said that you were 'instinctively' against the idea. I'm just trying to get my head around why some people feel like that, and why they're the loudest voices.

The majority of the country in favour of it, in some form.

[Insuflo]

Get Your Brits Out by Kneecap (or is it Elbow?) could be a ready made protest song.