Bellenden’s Road School Gate proposal

[Earl Aelfheah]

18 hours ago, Penguin68 said:

Which is why people are staring at the roads pavements and missing signs placed high up, in small type and often slightly obscured by trees etc. Their (and indeed my) attention is on people on the roads and pavements. Would you have it otherwise?

The idea that you can attend to either the road and the pavement (ignoring road signs), or to road signs (ignoring the road ahead and what's on the pavement), is obviously nonsense.

Edited Wednesday at 08:42 by Earl Aelfheah

[first mate]

It would be interesting to research new signage, where it is considered difficult to read, and calculate the amount of fines issued against through traffic. If, as asserted, most people manage to drive carefully as well as monitor all signage, without issue, then the amount if fines should be miniscule.

On the other hand, if most people are able to drive carefully and abide by speed limits, as Earl says,  it begs the question why some of these interventions are needed?

Edited Wednesday at 08:46 by first mate

[Earl Aelfheah]

25 minutes ago, first mate said:

It would be interesting to research new signage, where it is considered difficult to read and calculate the amount of fines issued against through traffic. If, as asserted, most people manage to drive carefully as well as monitor all signage, without issue, then the amount if fines should be miniscule.

It should hopefully be a minority, but not necessarily a miniscule one - that assumes that there aren't a significant number of people who drive around paying minimal attention (you just need to observe the number of people on their phones to know that's not true), or over the speed limit (again, good data that this is common place, especially in 20mph zones), or just feel that the rules shouldn't apply to them. For example, no one really believes that it's difficult to see a bus lane, but it doesn't stop individuals complaining across numerous threads when they're caught in one - it's not always about poor visibility.

Edited Wednesday at 09:09 by Earl Aelfheah

[first mate]

I do think Penguin and other posters have a point though. Sometimes signage is poorly placed and hard to read- examples of this have been given, where Southwark had to address the issue of poorly placed signage. It is not always a case of bad driving. Whether poor signage is deliberate or accidental is moot, in my view.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Where there is poor signage it obviously should be addressed (as you acknowledge it has been previously). But I just don't accept that one can either attend to the road and the pavement, or to road signs. It's clearly the case that you need to do both.

And it was suggested that it's somehow cynical for the council to target specifically, inattentive drivers near a school. I couldn't disagree more.

Edited Wednesday at 09:46 by Earl Aelfheah

[rjsmall]

I don't object to the idea of school streets but I think they way they have been implemented without taking bank holidays / school holidays into consideration is poor. Modern technology would allow them to be controlled in such as way that they are only active when schools are in perhaps indicated by amber or red lights on the school sign restriction signs themselves. It would avoid the confusion over whether the restrictions are in force during holidays and also avoid them being active during the 12 or 13 weeks when schools are not open.

[Penguin68]

It would also reduce the revenue opportunities. 

[Rockets]

10 hours ago, first mate said:

I do think Penguin and other posters have a point though. Sometimes signage is poorly placed and hard to read- examples of this have been given, where Southwark had to address the issue of poorly placed signage. It is not always a case of bad driving. Whether poor signage is deliberate or accidental is moot, in my view.

It's also about implementation and the powers given to local authorities to police these things and whether they are doing so in a fair way.

The signage for the CPZ on Calton was shocking and clearly designed to trap people.

The signage at the entrance of Burbage was not viewable from anyone approaching along Gallery Road

And I touched the white line in a bus lane turning onto Overhill and got fined by Southwark whilst if I had done it 100 metres down the road on the TFL road I would not have been fined.

Some believe councils are laying traps to generate revenue from motorists.

[Earl Aelfheah]

1 hour ago, Rockets said:

And I touched the white line in a bus lane turning onto Overhill and got fined by Southwark whilst if I had done it 100 metres down the road on the TFL road I would not have been fined.

Not this again. Is the issue unclear signage when it comes to you driving across a bus lane too? Because bus lanes are pretty easy to see

[alex_b]

8 hours ago, rjsmall said:

I don't object to the idea of school streets but I think they way they have been implemented without taking bank holidays / school holidays into consideration is poor. Modern technology would allow them to be controlled in such as way that they are only active when schools are in perhaps indicated by amber or red lights on the school sign restriction signs themselves. It would avoid the confusion over whether the restrictions are in force during holidays and also avoid them being active during the 12 or 13 weeks when schools are not open.

They are not in force outside of term time. 

[Rockets]

1 hour ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

Not this again. Is the issue unclear signage when it comes to you driving across a bus lane too? Because bus lanes are pretty easy to see

No - unclear guidance and road markings between Southwark and TFL over bus lanes. Southwark runs bus lane lines right to a left turn junction and places cameras in front of said junction and fines anyone who touches the line when turning left.

TFL stops the bus lane lines well ahead of the junction and gives left turning drivers 10m grace. 

Drive along Lordship Lane and look at the Overhill and Underhill junctions for comparison. One is Southwark (and probably racking up the fines) and one is TFL.

Therein lies the difference and a very real example of how councils are laying revenue generating traps, or as the AA refers to them money-making exercises, for drivers.

[Huggers]

Re signage, the signage for the Adys School street on the approach from Nutbrook street is very confusing. It says ‘school street ahead’ and an arrow to the right, which could be interpreted as the direction of the school street. But that is to the left. By the time drivers get to see the sign that depicts times of restrictions they are at the point of no return or three point turn. There used to be an Adequate sign with correct info but it has been removed. Council have ignored correspondence pointing this out.

[rjsmall]

17 hours ago, alex_b said:

They are not in force outside of term time. 

No indication on the signs that is the case - for instance this is a view of the sign on Heber road https://maps.app.goo.gl/cs2bRe4z1MEgpNqp9 (strangely placed on the righthand side of the road) and this is on Adys Road https://maps.app.goo.gl/EvwMDPbRhxGn1i5D7

 

[malumbu]

17 hours ago, Rockets said:

No - unclear guidance and road markings between Southwark and TFL over bus lanes. Southwark runs bus lane lines right to a left turn junction and places cameras in front of said junction and fines anyone who touches the line when turning left.

TFL stops the bus lane lines well ahead of the junction and gives left turning drivers 10m grace. 

Drive along Lordship Lane and look at the Overhill and Underhill junctions for comparison. One is Southwark (and probably racking up the fines) and one is TFL.

Therein lies the difference and a very real example of how councils are laying revenue generating traps, or as the AA refers to them money-making exercises, for drivers.

Just admit that you made a mistake. If you don't break the rules then you don't get fined.  

[Rockets]

43 minutes ago, rjsmall said:

No indication on the signs that is the case - for instance this is a view of the sign on Heber road https://maps.app.goo.gl/cs2bRe4z1MEgpNqp9 (strangely placed on the righthand side of the road) and this is on Adys Road https://maps.app.goo.gl/EvwMDPbRhxGn1i5D7

 

I had always presumed they were in operation out of term time too but when I looked on the Southwark website realised they only operate during term. The fact the signs do not call this out is probably another underhand tactic deployed by the council. Surely the signs have to call out when they are operating?

[alex_b]

6 hours ago, Rockets said:

I had always presumed they were in operation out of term time too but when I looked on the Southwark website realised they only operate during term. The fact the signs do not call this out is probably another underhand tactic deployed by the council. Surely the signs have to call out when they are operating?

I suspect it would be too much text to add to the sign, but the actual order does state its term time only. 

On 29/10/2025 at 22:44, Huggers said:

Re signage, the signage for the Adys School street on the approach from Nutbrook street is very confusing. It says ‘school street ahead’ and an arrow to the right, which could be interpreted as the direction of the school street. But that is to the left. By the time drivers get to see the sign that depicts times of restrictions they are at the point of no return or three point turn. There used to be an Adequate sign with correct info but it has been removed. Council have ignored correspondence pointing this out.

I think it would be better if they’d started the school street at the junction with Nutbrook but the council chose not to. I presume it was to minimise the size of the closure. 

[Rockets]

17 minutes ago, alex_b said:

I suspect it would be too much text to add to the sign, but the actual order does state its term time only. 

I think, given the nature of the signage, it should state when the school street is operational or not. Otherwise it is misleading.