Are PCN's being used as money-making exercises in London - the AA thinks so....

[Rockets]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/ten-million-parking-fines-pcns-london-drivers-b2853591.html

[alice]

London boroughs need all the money they can get. Sounds reasonable to me.

[march46]

If only there was some way to avoid being fined…

[Earl Aelfheah]

Play another tune Rockets

[Rockets]

Hey @Earl Aelfheah it's not me saying it but the AA..."a money making exercise" - pretty much sums up a lot of the programmes disguised as "promoting active travel" or "in the interests of road safety". 

 

The president of the AA, Edmund King, has said: “While there is a need to protect parking spaces and bus lanes from drivers who break rules and make life difficult for other road users, London enforcement that used to be for deterrence is now a money-making exercise for TfL and London councils”.

“Sadly, too many drivers, who are certain they did nothing wrong or the road and sign layout was in effect a trap, paid the half-rate within 14 days instead of contesting the PCN. Such is the fear of having to pay fines that are more than a day’s wages and often don’t fit the nature of the offence, such as being one wheel over the line.”

Ha ha...one wheel over the line...he must have heard me!

 

 

[Earl Aelfheah]

It’s not that hard to avoid crossing into a bus lane. If you felt your fine was unjust, you should have appealed it, instead of repeatedly complaining about it across this forum over many months.

Edited 12 hours ago by Earl Aelfheah

[Rockets]

Seemingly the AA agrees with me that I might have a point and I fell victim to a "money making exercise" - a trap designed by Southwark to raise money - I suspect a lot of other people have fallen victim to it as well. Nearly 10 million PCNs being issued in London does suggest something very awry is going on.....

[march46]

 

14 minutes ago, Rockets said:

Nearly 10 million PCNs being issued in London does suggest something very awry is going on.....

It suggests driving standards need to improve. Inconsiderate parking can increase the danger to pedestrians and cyclists. Bus journey times are also impacted - see Lordship Lane and I noticed another TfL notice recently blaming poorly parked vehicles for a bus route needing to be diverted. 

[first mate]

29 minutes ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

It’s not that hard to avoid crossing into a bus lane.

This is where you lose the debate, in my view. A car wheel touching the outer edge of a bus lane demarcation line is clearly not crossing into the bus lane. That is like stating that someone who accidentally brushed against you while passing, deliberately shoved you.

Rockets also states that a TFL operated bus lane a few roads up from the lane under Southwark control, would not elicit the same punitive measures. I wonder why? Could it possibly be that TFL recognise that the car did not cross into a bus lane at all?

 

Edited 11 hours ago by first mate

[Earl Aelfheah]

1 hour ago, first mate said:

This is where you lose the debate, in my view. A car wheel touching the outer edge of a bus lane demarcation line is clearly not crossing into the bus lane.

No, but do you think that's what happened in Rockets case? Anyone who knows that turn and who followed Rockets ridiculous multipage conspiracy post (in which he refused to actually confirm that he had been fined - good to get that clear), will note not just what was said, but the questions that were assiduously ignored / ducked. And the fact that he appears not to have appealed it. It's just a very public demonstration of sour grapes, and an ongoing inability to admit error.

Edited 10 hours ago by Earl Aelfheah

[first mate]

My view is that in an ideal world, with camera evidence, motivation is fairly clear. A wheel that touches or encroaches onto the white line momentarily and then immediately moves away is a driver noting and correcting a small error within an equally small timeframe. A fine could be mad, or not, at the discretion of the enforcing body that has the camera evidence. An organisation that is more interested in money made through a technicality is going to choose to pursue the fine;  an organisation more interested in rewarding 'good' behaviour might note the driver self corrected and choose not to fine.

That is how I see it.

I see no reason to disbelieve Rockets' version of what happened.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Just a quick reminder. Back in 2024 Rockets started a thread ostensibly to 'warn' people of a conspiracy by Southwark council to 'trap' people innocently driving into the bus lane at the junction of Lordship Lane and Overhill Road.

At the time Rockets refused to confirm whether he had been fined. The suggestion that he might be motivated by having been caught out himself was described by First mate as an outrageous personal attack: "seen before with the pro LTN lobby if you cannot debate with facts and evidence, then go low, seems part of the playbook.". Worth pointing out that nearly a year later, he's finally fessed up. 

This is the junction in question:

Overhill Road (pictured going off to the left) is one way, so you're turning into the middle of the road - there is no traffic coming towards you. It's pretty hard, turning left, to 'clip' the bus lane without getting close to also clipping the near curb / hitting the lamppost. But there is often stationary traffic queueing back from the lights, and people do get caught by the cameras slipping up the inside of another vehicle (in the bus lane).

@Rockets you weren’t 'clipping' the bus lane as you cut up the inside of some traffic to turn left were you?

Edited 3 hours ago by Earl Aelfheah

[HeadNun]

I don't really know the history of this argument between Rockets and EA, and I haven't read all these threads forensically, but I myself was forced into a bus lane further down LL on Sunday, not far from where this photo was taken. Parked cars on the other side of road and traffic coming towards me in the other lane, meant we all had to go slightly into the bus lane. I remember wondering at the time whether I'll get a PCN for it. 

[Penguin68]

1 hour ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

there is no traffic coming towards you.

I've certainly had a bike come out of that road, although I cannot recall if that was legal (a lot of the 'one-way' roads do allow bikes to go against the flow of motorised traffic locally) or simply a rogue cyclist. Either which way, to assume no oncoming traffic is never safe nowadays, even where the roads are nominally one-way.

[Earl Aelfheah]

1 hour ago, Penguin68 said:

I've certainly had a bike come out of that road, although I cannot recall if that was legal (a lot of the 'one-way' roads do allow bikes to go against the flow of motorised traffic locally) or simply a rogue cyclist. Either which way, to assume no oncoming traffic is never safe nowadays, even where the roads are nominally one-way.

I wasn’t suggesting you shouldn’t look. Just pointing out in the context of the picture that it’s a one lane road, so you have lots of room to turn into it.

Edited 3 hours ago by Earl Aelfheah

[malumbu]

I'm probably the only one on this forum who has met Edmund King, both with the AA and in a former life at the RAC foundation.  In recent years we had a good chat about low emission transport.

As said on the other thread, if you don't break the rules you don't get fined.

I've turned left at the above junction scores of times and have yet to go into the bus lane.

[Earl Aelfheah]

2 hours ago, HeadNun said:

I don't really know the history of this argument between Rockets and EA, and I haven't read all these threads forensically, but I myself was forced into a bus lane further down LL on Sunday, not far from where this photo was taken. Parked cars on the other side of road and traffic coming towards me in the other lane, meant we all had to go slightly into the bus lane. I remember wondering at the time whether I'll get a PCN for it. 

Yeh, that's quite different. Rockets apparently got fined in the bus lane when turning left (before turning left?) into Overhill Road. Although he didn't admit this for quite a while, rather pretending that he was just concerned generally about an unavoidable trap, cynically set by Southwark to trick people. He's referenced it for months across multiple threads. 

He also repeatedly stated that you are allowed to drive in TfL operated bus lanes if turning left. This isn't true of course (unless there are dotted lines and an arrow indicating that you can move across) and is not a very helpful myth to spread.

Edited 3 hours ago by Earl Aelfheah

[Rockets]

6 hours ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

And the fact that he appears not to have appealed it. It's just a very public demonstration of sour grapes, and an ongoing inability to admit error.

I did appeal it and sent documentation from TFL showing how they "police" the issue from TFL's own guidance and demonstrated how I merely crossed the white line whilst turning left (Southwark's own photo was my evidence) . Southwark's (or Southwark's revenue collecting entity third party company) response: we police things differently.

 

In fact here is their response:

We have carefully considered what you have said but we have decided not to cancel your Penalty Charge Notice (PCN).
We sent you a PCN because our camera evidence shows your vehicle in a bus lane at a time when only buses are allowed
there.
When you are driving alongside a bus lane and you wish to take a left turning up ahead, you must not enter the bus lane too
soon and drive along it before reaching the turning. Instead, you need to turn across the bus lane at the point - usually level
with the turning - where its line has changed from solid to broken or where arrows on the road show where to turn.
We have reviewed the CCTV camera evidence and accept that you turned left. However, you entered the bus lane too
soon, meaning that you were in the bus lane longer than necessary.
Please be advised that the Bus Lane was not enforced by TFL, therefore the information that you have provided does not
apply to the bus lane in contravention, which is enforced by Southwark Council.

 

The information I sent was from TFL that said that drivers get a 20m grace period when turning left into a junction across a bus lane.

A representation is made on the basis that the driver had
to temporarily drive in a bus lane, in order that they could
turn left to access a side road or driveway.

View the evidence to validate the representation. If
the vehicle was in the bus lane for a distance of
over 20 metres, reject.

OR if distance within the Bus Lane is less than 20
metres, accept.

 

7 hours ago, first mate said:

Rockets also states that a TFL operated bus lane a few roads up from the lane under Southwark control, would not elicit the same punitive measures. I wonder why? Could it possibly be that TFL recognise that the car did not cross into a bus lane at all?

It's the very same stretch of road...in fact, if the section of Lordship Lane in front of the shops opposite the Grove Tavern is Southwark (which I think it is) then every time a car goes to park in front of the shops then Southwark can issue a fine....pssst don't tell them in case they put a camera there....

So let's play a game of spot the difference....look at Earl's picture. Look how close the bus lane finishes near the apex of the junction. Also note the strategically placed Southwark camera on the lampost beyond the junction.

Now look at the (TFL) junction at Underhill (note where the bus lane ends)

 

 

 

And now (TFL) Wood Vale. Also note the lack of cameras on any of the lamposts near those junctions...

 

 

So it is clear that Southwark have made it much easier for people to get fined at the Overhill junction and put a camera in to make sure they do.

3 hours ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

Rockets you weren’t 'clipping' the bus lane as you cut up the inside of some traffic to turn left were you?

I did clip the bus lane as I turned left into Underhill. If it was a TFL junction I could have done more than clip it and drive down it for under 20 metres and I would not have got a fine (if I turned left).

It is council strategic placements like this that is driving the AA to claim that these are money-making exercises - because clearly they are. Councils are laying traps to drive revenue and I think there is a growing sentiment that such things are not fair (did anyone see the BBC evening news item on PCNs people had got around not having dog poo bags or putting a strawberry stork down a drain based on this article https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4gpzxnl7l9o).

17 minutes ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

He also repeatedly stated that you are allowed to drive in TfL operated bus lanes if turning left. This isn't true of course (unless there are dotted lines and an arrow indicating that you can move across) and is not a very helpful myth to spread.

You clearly know not of what you talk about.......again.....

[malumbu]

I received two bus lane fines in the 00s, one for cutting in slightly to early on the South Circ.  I appealed and they showed me the photo of me cutting in.  The second was at around 7.30 on Brixton Road on a Sunday morning, then the bus lanes were timed for rush hour, even if you don't get a rush hour at the weekend, and I simply forgot about them as there was no other traffic on the road.  I received a fine for the CC charge on Xmas Eve thinking it was the Xmas hols when CC does not apply.  But Xmas eve is still a normal day.

Obviously none of this was my fault and the authorities are clearly out to get me.  

[Earl Aelfheah]

@Rockets TfL do not let you drive in a bus lane for 20 metres before turning left. You continually repeating it, doesn’t make it true.

The quote you provide is from guidance marked ‘in confidence’ (no doubt obtained by someone trying to find loop holes for their offending) to outsourced enforcement companies processing appeals in bulk on behalf of TfL.  It does not suggest that you can use a TfL bus lane if turning left and not get a ticket. The document (actually an appendix to a schedule) also states that it must be considered in context of other documents, which we don't have.

It's just another tedious example of your searching for snippets of information that you think vaguely align with what you want to believe, whilst ignoring everything else. Both Tfl and the highway code are clear that you must not drive or stop in a bus lane during its hours of operation unless the signs indicate you may do so. 

If you insist on driving in bus lanes you will get fined, whether they're operated by Southwark or TfL. Suggesting otherwise is extremely misleading and irresponsible.

Southwark's response suggests that you were in the bus lane before turning left. Why you had to hide the fact that you had been fined and wrap up your annoyance in conspiracy, (rather than just accept an error like most people), is beyond me. The fact that you've gone on about it for nearly a year, is ridiculous.

1 hour ago, Rockets said:

And now (TFL) Wood Vale.

This is where the bus lane ends. The road goes in to one lane.

Edited 2 hours ago by Earl Aelfheah

[HeadNun]

1 hour ago, malumbu said:

I'm probably the only one on this forum who has met Edmund King, both with the AA and in a former life at the RAC foundation.  In recent years we had a good chat about low emission transport.

I've turned left at the above junction scores of times and have yet to go into the bus lane.

Finally we've reached peak Malumbu. This is more Alan Partridge than Alan Partridge. 

[Rockets]

33 minutes ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

@Rockets TfL do not let you drive in a bus lane for 20 metres before turning left. You continually repeating it, doesn’t make it true.

They do if you appeal......the document is their guidance for when to say yes or no to an appeal. It's all very clear no matter what you might try to claim.

Edited 2 hours ago by Rockets

[Earl Aelfheah]

Drive in a TfL bus lane. See what happens when you appeal your fine, clutching an ‘in confidence’ appendix to a schedule, of an old partial document, issued to outsourced companies dealing with bulk processing of backlog appeals that you scraped off the internet. 🤣

Better still, just wait next time and don’t slip by stationary traffic to turn left using the bus lane.

Or do, and take the fine on the chin like most people would.

Anything really, but 12 months worth of excuses and conspiracy posts across multiple threads.

Edited 1 hour ago by Earl Aelfheah

[Rockets]

So you don't agree then @Earl Aelfheah that the Overhill Road junction is a very real example of a "money-making exercise"? Too many it is very much a sign of how councils, like Southwark, are laying traps for drivers in an effort to raise revenue. Clearly, since counculs were given more powers there is an increasing problem of councils abusing said powers.

[first mate]

2 hours ago, malumbu said:

I've turned left at the above junction scores of times and have yet to go into the bus lane.

I'm a bit confused. I thought you barely drove anywhere in London, but always cycled or used public transport?