Are PCN's being used as money-making exercises in London - the AA thinks so....

[ianr]

For information, these are two recent relevant TfL FOI responses:

https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/transparency/freedom-of-information/foi-request-detail?referenceId=FOI-0829-2526
 

https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/transparency/freedom-of-information/foi-request-detail?referenceId=FOI-3530-2425

Rockets, can you please let us see the visual evidence that Southwark provided.  Was it video, or still photography, or frames from a video sequence?

 

[Rockets]

Hey @Earl Aelfheah so the 20m thing is a thing then after all...I won't to say I told you so but I....you were wrong.

Southwark supplied a still frame but I am very reluctant to share it here as it would identify my car to my sworn enemies and such is the anti-Rockets sentiment expressed by many on here I fear for reprisals! 😉 Of course I dont but by heck I am not going to let anyone see the make, model and colour of my car on this forum for fear they identify where I live!

 

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[Earl Aelfheah]

@ianr - that's interesting. It does indeed suggest that TfLs internal guidance on dealing with appeals is to give 20 metres of grace.

This does not amount to what was originally claimed however - that TfL allow people to drive in bus lanes when turning left - you can read the signs, their guidance to drivers on their website and the relevant rules in the highway code. There is a big difference from the rules in place and the circumstances under which a public body decides it's worth the time and cost of pursuing an appeal (and possibly legal action) against a traffic offender. 

The document appears to have been obtained through a freedom of information request on internal procedures, by people looking for loopholes for their offending. There is an easier way to avoid having to pay out, and that's just to follow the rules in the first place.

To be clear, you are not allowed to enter a bus lane, even to turn left except where there is an arrow and a dotted line indicating that you can. Drive in a bus lane and you will still be issued a ticket.

And of course, the bus lane in question is operated by Southwark, not TfL - so it's kind of irrelevant.

@Rockets You can blank out your car in the pictures. You've chosen to spend a year complaining across multiple threads about how unfair the enforcement of that bus lane is, and have finally admitted that you're really talking about an incidence where you got caught yourself. Why not share the evidence, so that people can judge that themselves?

15 hours ago, Rockets said:

So you don't agree then @Earl Aelfheah that the Overhill Road junction is a very real example of a "money-making exercise"?

I don't - the road markings and signage are clear. The turn into Overhill is easy, there is no reason at all to enter the bus before turning (it actually makes the turn more difficult). So in what sense is it a 'trap'?

Edited Friday at 09:04 by Earl Aelfheah

[first mate]

40 minutes ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

does not amount to what was originally claimed however - that TfL allow people to drive in bus lanes when turning left -

But that was not what was being claimed. As I understand it, there can be a 20 m grace area, where TFL exercise discretion as to whether the driver meant to drive through the bus lane or simply clipped it or veered into it momentarily- again, revealing driver intention.

Whatever way you cut it, the difference between the TFL policy and that of Southwark, is to enforce clear violations, where a driver is deliberately driving through a bus lane, instead of chasing down every possible opportunity to fine the driver whatever the apparent motivation.

I was also surprised by Malumbu's statement that he often turns left at the turning referred to- I had thought he did not drive in London, but cycled or used public transport? 

Edited Friday at 09:12 by first mate

[Earl Aelfheah]

8 hours ago, first mate said:

But that was not what was being claimed. As I understand it, there can be a 20 m grace area, where TFL exercise discretion as to whether the driver meant to drive through the bus lane or simply clipped it or veered into it momentarily- again, revealing driver intention.

On appeal. If you enter a bus lane before turning left you will be issued with a fine. Both TfL rules and the highway code are clear that you are not allow you to enter a bus lane when turning left unless there is an arrow and broken white lines indicating that you can.

The internal guidance TfL follow in relation to managing appeals is not 'their rules on when you can use a bus lane'. All public authorities will take a view on how much time and money they're willing to put in to pursuing enforcement action. This bus lane isn't even TfL operated, so how is any of it relevant? It is all just the usual deflection and nonsense. 

If Rockets wants to discuss whether it was unfair, then he can share the photos.

Edited Friday at 17:12 by Earl Aelfheah

[Sue]

1 minute ago, first mate said:

Whatever way you cut it, the difference between the TFL policy and that of Southwark, is to enforce clear violations, where a driver is deliberately driving through a bus lane, instead of chasing down every possible opportunity to fine the driver whatever the apparent motivation.

I don't understand this.

Either  a driver is in a bus lane or they aren't.

If you are in a bus lane you are liable to get fined. I've had a fine myself. I was in an unfamiliar area and obviously wasn't deliberately in a bus lane, but that's absolutely no excuse.

I don't believe Southwark is "chasing down every possible opportunity to find the driver whatever the apparent motivation."

It's a bit like saying you should let a thief  off because they were a bit short of money.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Exactly. That bus lane is clearly marked, clearly signed, it's an easy turn into a one way street. There is no reason to be in the bus lane. All Southwark are doing is enforcing clear rules. Yeh, it's annoying to be fined, but what is it people think is 'unfair'?

 

Edited Friday at 09:25 by Earl Aelfheah

[Rockets]

1 hour ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

@ianr - that's interesting. It does indeed suggest that TfLs internal guidance on dealing with appeals is to give 20 metres of grace.

Yes indeed it does @Earl Aelfheah  Southwark, on the other hand, do not. Southwark also run the bus lane lines much closer to junctions with a left-hand turn. Southwark also put cameras in select positions to catch infringements. The AA believes some are using this type of implementation as a "money-making exercise". This one absolutely reeks of a "money-making exercise" and the fact there is no consistency between that Southwark junction and the TFL one a few metres down the road (or even the Southwark implementation of the bus lane in front of the shops) demonstrates the mess councils are creating in their quest for revenue.

44 minutes ago, Sue said:

I don't believe Southwark is "chasing down every possible opportunity to find the driver whatever the apparent motivation."

It's a bit like saying you should let a thief  off because they were a bit short of money.

But @Sue your argument falls down because a criminal court will consider mitigating circumstances before passing sentence. TFL view turning left as a mitigating circumstance when crossing a bus lane (up to 20 metres). Southwark do not. Why might that be? Why is it that the regional travel authority will apply mitigating circumstances but the local council do not?

[Sue]

Just now, Rockets said:

Yes indeed it does @Earl Aelfheah  Southwark, on the other hand, do not. Southwark also run the bus lane lines much closer to junctions with a left-hand turn. Southwark also put cameras in select positions to catch infringements. The AA believes some are using this type of implementation as a "money-making exercise". This one absolutely reeks of a "money-making exercise" and the fact there is no consistency between that Southwark junction and the TFL one a few metres down the road (or even the Southwark implementation of the bus lane in front of the shops) demonstrates the mess councils are creating in their quest for revenue.

But @Sue your argument falls down because a criminal court will consider mitigating circumstances before passing sentence. TFL view turning left as a mitigating circumstance when crossing a bus lane (up to 20 metres). Southwark do not. Why might that be? Why is it that the regional travel authority will apply mitigating circumstances but the local council do not?

I stand by what I said. There are rules, and Southwark is perfectly entitled to enforce those rules, regardless of what anybody else does.

If  it "makes money" from the fines, that might be a useful by product for it, but that is completely irrelevant.

If people break a rule, they can't complain if they then suffer the consequences.

If there were extenuating circumstances (like going into a bus lane to avoid hitting a pedestrian who suddenly ran across the road) then that's different, but that must be extremely rare.

[Earl Aelfheah]

The fines are there to deter people from driving in bus lanes. That bus lane is clearly marked, clearly signed, it's an easy turn into a one way street. There is no reason to be in the bus lane. Southwark are enforcing clear rules. 

When you cut through all the noise, the months of moaning. All you've really got is a refusal to admit an error and take the fine on the chin.

It's also notable that you've never challenged the suggestion you may have been undertaking slow moving or stationary vehicles (which is the main reason for people getting caught in that bus lane - otherwise you're just making the turn more difficult by coming over early).

Edited Friday at 10:57 by Earl Aelfheah

[Penguin68]

Surely the issue is one of intent - clipping a bus lane whilst performing a manoeuvre which is otherwise not intending to 'use' the bus lane is very different in intent than occupying a bus lane and continuing forward in it. TfL clearly takes 'intent' into mind when administering 'their' section of roads - Southwark takes revenue generation opportunities as their watchword. 

[Earl Aelfheah]

2 hours ago, Penguin68 said:

TfL clearly takes 'intent' into mind when administering 'their' section of roads

TfL will fine you if your car enters a bus lane exactly as Southwark do. Read the Highway Code if you’re unsure about the rules on bus lanes, or the signage, or the public guidance issued by both Southwark and TfL. It’s all pretty clear. 

Edited Friday at 12:57 by Earl Aelfheah

[malumbu]

18 hours ago, HeadNun said:

Finally we've reached peak Malumbu. This is more Alan Partridge than Alan Partridge. 

Oh I have far more, just want to do a drip feed, and if I say too much about my amazing experience and contacts I expect some will try to hunt me down on LinkedIn

17 hours ago, first mate said:

I'm a bit confused. I thought you barely drove anywhere in London, but always cycled or used public transport?

Read my original post, my friend, I went back to the 00s with the bus lane FPNs, and the CC fine was in 2012.  I only drive nowadays to check that school streets and LTNs are appropriately signed, and that turnings at junctions across bus lanes gives you appropriate room to miss the solid line. It's a community service that I provide and  I'm happy to report all are good.

Now, as I posted in the past.  I get it.  You are new to an area, it's raining, you have noisy kids in the car, or you just don't clock the signage,  You are angry, you feel victimised, you think it is wrong that those who regularly flout the rules don't get caught, you feel that there should be a warning first, and that the cost of the fine exceeds the wrong doing,

That's not patronising.  That is how I felt in the past.  But I've moved on, the odd unfortunate penalty is part of motoring costs, I'm far more careful than in the past in checking signage, particularly parking restrictions, and no longer feel that they are out to get me, but that the restrictions are generally there for good reason.

Oh, and hardly ever driving helps.

[first mate]

I had not realised just how involved you are in Council traffic design and enforcement.

Some might ask why you have to drive around to check signage etc? They might wonder why you cannot use an e-bike or scooter to do your checks?

[Rockets]

And yet 50 yards further down the road - Southwark demonstrates a complete lack of consistency - do the sames rules still apply with this bus lane? If so, how are people allowed to cross the bus lane to get to the shop parking?

 

 

2 hours ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

The good citizen act / refusal to admit it being a personal gripe resulting from a fine, the multiple posts across multiple threads over months, the nonsense about internal documents on appeal decisions by tfl (this is not a tfl lane), it's ridiculous.

 

Ha ha, you're starting to sound like the council! 😉 The issue here is that you don't like the fact that some folks are questioning whether these new measures are to improve road safety or raise revenue and remember we are dealing with a council that has a long track record of being caught implementing schemes that raise a fortune but were installed or policed incorrectly.

 

The more people I explain my personal experience at that junction to the more people realise what the council is doing. Given the AA are now jumping on the bandwagon it is important people realise where these traps are being laid - so they can do their best to avoid being a victim!

All part of the community service many of us provide - some would prefer we didn't but you would have to ask them why that is.....;-)

2 hours ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

TfL will fine you if your car enters a bus lane exactly as Southwark do. The difference is one of their capacity and appetite to fight appeals.

No. The difference is that on appeal, as long as you were not in the bus lane for over 20 metres whilst turning left across the bus lane the fine will be dropped. Interesting of course would be to understand whether this also determines their likelihood to issue a fine in the first place.

[Earl Aelfheah]

😭 

Were you cutting up the inside of another vehicle by chance?

[Rockets]

No @Earl Aelfheah I was turning left into Overhill so I was not using the bus lane to queue jump (as I know a lot of people do).

 

Any thoughts on the bus lane outside the shops (or are you trying to avoid that question) - should cars be liable to a fine if they turn across the bus lane to park there - as, per Southwark's own guidance, turning across a solid bus lane is not permitted?

[snowy]

2 hours ago, Rockets said:

And yet 50 yards further down the road - Southwark demonstrates a complete lack of consistency - do the sames rules still apply with this bus lane? If so, how are people allowed to cross the bus lane to get to the shop parking?

 

 

 

😃

You really have self - destructed any reputation you might have had on here over the last few days - and this post is a perfect example.

You’re so annoyed that your googled / PistonHeads - sourced Get Out of Jail Free card didn’t work with Southwark, and that they politely told you to sling your hook, that you now can’t even consider the possibility that the traffic regulations for that bus lane actually distinguish between cutting into a lane early (and getting caught "turning left' on a sharp turn) to enter Overhill versus crossing a bus lane to access parking bays, shops or homes.

Southwark’s bus lane orders - like TfL’s - probably include the standard exemption that allows vehicles to cross a bus lane for legitimate access to premises.

Traffic planners might have thought of this - otherwise people with cars living on bus lands would be fined getting into their homes every day - but do keep telling us how you’ve uncovered a grand conspiracy by planners who understand road design better than you, and might not just be bearing a grudge!

[Dulwichway]

In reference to the topic title: Yes, of course.

[malumbu]

Deleted post

Edited yesterday at 00:16 by malumbu
Some may not be amused

[Rockets]

18 hours ago, snowy said:

You really have self - destructed any reputation you might have had on here over the last few days - and this post is a perfect example

Coming from you @snowy I look on this as a badge of honour and might get it framed for my living room! 😉

12 hours ago, Dulwichway said:

In reference to the topic title: Yes, of course.

And this is the point, there are many examples, like Overhill Road (which I am sure is making a lot of money from unsuspecting drivers) that look like traffic implementations that serve no other purpose than to make money and this is a council that has a long history of putting profit before people.

@malumbu I am intrigued as to what you posted! 😉

 

Edited yesterday at 11:28 by Rockets

[Earl Aelfheah]

Omg. Get over it. It was a year ago and your appeal was rejected. Take some responsibility 

[Rockets]

23 minutes ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

Omg. Get over it. It was a year ago and your appeal was rejected. Take some responsibility 

Errrm nah...don't you think it is important for people to fight against local authorities when they are clearly starting to abuse the powers given to them? I mean Southwark is having to repay a lot of people for fines that were issued incorrectly...do you not agree with that?

The fact the AA felt compelled to call out London councils over this shows how the mood board is shifting against these money-making exercises.

Look, we understand that many of the posters on here will defend the council to the death over anything and everything. But we also understand that that is not being driven by commonsense or pragmatism but by politics and/or idealogy. Some will turn a blind-eye so some clear abuses of power because it doesnt suit their own, or political party's, agenda. Some of the biggest Southwark supporters don't even live in the borough which makes it all the more strange. 

Maybe it's time local authorities starting taking some responsibility and not looking at some of their constituents as just revenue generating opportunities.

[ianr]

2 hours ago, Rockets said:

Errrm nah...don't you think it is important for people to fight against local authorities when they are clearly starting to abuse the powers given to them?

So what have you been doing?

[malumbu]

7 hours ago, Rockets said:

 

 

@malumbu I am intrigued as to what you posted! 😉

 

Oh, what I thought was amusing/banter, but I know at times it is not seen that way.

I have little sympathy for those that go on and on about PCNs.  I've explained my personal journey in earlier threads.  I'm no saint.  I'd happily have far more speed cameras in particular average speed cameras.  Some of my least favourite roads due to speeding traffic are Brenchley, Gipsy Road, Half Moon Lane, and Perry Vale/rise.  The ones where cyclists can get squeezed between vehicles and traffic calming infrastructure are the worst.  Burbage is another one - unusual as this is a much wider road, but that seems to encourage people to put their foot down even more, and many of the drivers should know better, ie older people probably with families.

The next generation are less likely to drive, and more likely to use a variety of means of getting around which will include autonomous vehicles.