Are PCN's being used as money-making exercises in London - the AA thinks so....

[Earl Aelfheah]

On 02/11/2025 at 12:52, Rockets said:

people become so ideologically and/or politically entrenched in a position that they cannot step back, be pragmatic and say...yeah, that's a bit off

What’s a bit off? You got a fine for driving in a bus lane, when you shouldn’t have been driving in a bus lane. Suck it up.

What is a bit off, is winging about it across multiple threads for close to a year.

Edited 20 hours ago by Earl Aelfheah

[Rockets]

Thanks @Earl Aelfheah - perfect timing..

#whatwasIjustsaying

[first mate]

40 minutes ago, Penguin68 said:

 

41 minutes ago, Penguin68 said:

Some of these responses read almost like those of officials responsible for actual decisions and defending them. Surely not! 

Spot on. I also am beginning to think that these threads are populated by a number of people that work with or in council transport/ traffic design.

[Earl Aelfheah]

You get caught driving in a bus lane you shouldn't have been in, spend a year moaning about it across multiple threads, and if anyone suggests it’s turned into whiny nonsense and is boring af they must secretly work for the council. Got it 🤣🤣

Edited Sunday at 15:21 by Earl Aelfheah

[first mate]

Or be involved in research used by the council;)

[Rockets]

18 hours ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

You get caught driving in a bus lane you shouldn't have been in, spend a year moaning about it across multiple threads, and if anyone suggests it’s turned into whiny nonsense and is boring af they must secretly work for the council. Got it 🤣🤣

@Earl Aelfheah you're embellishing my experience for your own effect (again) - I wasn't caught driving in a bus lane I was fined for driving across a bus lane in the action of turning left onto Overhill Road......please try to get your facts right - I am sure you'll agree that accuracy is so important!

@first mate after the incident where a Southwark councillor (and then Southwark housing chief) was caught setting up a fake social media account to call local residents "pathetic" when they opposed a housing project he was responsible for I am pretty sure councillors or council officials are not silly enough to engage in such activities - although the repeated name-calling is very familiar! Clearly some posting on here have strong links to the active travel lobby and the council but I doubt any will ever declare it.

[malumbu]

On 02/11/2025 at 12:52, Rockets said:

Therein lies the problem nowadays - people become so ideologically and/or politically entrenched in a position that they cannot step back, be pragmatic and say...yeah, that's a bit off. Instead they try to defend it to the death, probsbly deep down knowing that what is happening isn't right.

I've been posting on this forum for over ten years and this is perhaps the most ludicrous thing I have ever seen.  I post facts,  I post opinion,  You suggest that I and others cannot see the broader picture.  Please have a good look at yourself.  

The facts:

1.  You were driving in a bus lane.  It doesn't matter if that was a metre or a 1000 metres.

2.  Southwark as the enforcement authority have the right to issue a PCN

3.  There is inconsistency of rules and enforcement.  My example is driving around Crystal Palace where you go from 20 to 30 and back to 20 mph. Parking on one side of the road in Westminster, to the other side Camden, where there are different parking restrictions is another example.  Such is life.

My opinion

4.  Local authorities have right to impose penalties.  It up to them how lenient they are and whether their approach is proportionate.

5.  Restrictions are there for good reason.  Sadly some make an innocent mistake, but overall the restrictions are there for a good reason, in particular to protect our environment and promote good health.  There is always a balance between bringing the public onside, and alienating the masses - particularly as social media can distort the true picture.  

Your opinion.

6.  You don't agree with my point 4 - you have written much about your views.

7.  You don't agree with my point 5.  As above.

So no matter how unfair it may be, I don't see Lambeth, Southwark or Lewisham letting you off a penalty/speed awareness course when you go from Bromley into one of these Boroughs exceeding 20mph - although speed awareness course is a good example where there is some leniency applied in part as this is one of the few times you will have training after you passed your driving test.

Similarly Camden did not apply leniency when they introduced more draconian parking restrictions compared to their neighbours.

I've long given up fighting the authorities on these sorts of things.  I learned to hard way to be more careful in checking restrictions and keeping my eye on the road. They are battles you rarely win.

But please don't insult our intelligence by lobbing blanket statements about my, and others, ability for critical thinking.

It's fair enough that you have the different opinions. but please be prepared to debate.

That applies to you too @Dulwichway

 

 

Edited Monday at 15:59 by malumbu
Amended to phrase my last sentence better and to invite Dulwichway to comment rather than just leaving emojis

[Rockets]

As I was saying......

[Moovart]

The AA was very helpful to me when I was issued 3 PCNs in one week while on holiday despite being legally parked.  Seems the parking wardens didn't understand the rules. 

My appeal was rejected on all three PCNs but when I wrote again with supporting correspondence from the AA, giving Southwark the opportunity to avoid going to tribunal, all the PCNs were withdrawn. 

During this time many other PCNs were issued in the same place and I'll bet many people just paid up unfairly until the parking wardens were further educated and stopped ticketing that area.  The problem is now solved.

I'm guessing most people haven't the time or the confidence to go to tribunal so if an appeal is rejected by a local authority when it shouldn't be, I would guess that the authority will frequently make money from that unfairly paid up PCN and that's dishonest.  Enforcement should always be correct and justified. 

 

 

 

[Rockets]

26 minutes ago, Moovart said:

I'm guessing most people haven't the time or the confidence to go to tribunal so if an appeal is rejected by a local authority when it shouldn't be, I would guess that the authority will frequently make money from that unfairly paid up PCN and that's dishonest.  Enforcement should always be correct and justified. 

 

@Moovart the AA spokesperson said exactly that in the original article at the top of this thread: “Sadly, too many drivers, who are certain they did nothing wrong or the road and sign layout was in effect a trap, paid the half-rate within 14 days instead of contesting the PCN. Such is the fear of having to pay fines that are more than a day’s wages and often don’t fit the nature of the offence, such as being one wheel over the line.”

[Earl Aelfheah]

On 03/11/2025 at 10:13, Rockets said:

I wasn't caught driving in a bus lane

According to the appeal outcome you shared, they upheld your fine on the grounds that:

“…you must not enter the bus lane too soon and drive along it before reaching the turning.” [my emphasis in bold]

Is that not what happened then? Because it certainly suggests you were caught driving in a bus lane 🤔

19 hours ago, Moovart said:

Enforcement should always be correct and justified. 

No one would disagree with this. If you're fined incorrectly, you should absolutely challenge it.

Conversely, where an individual drives in a clearly marked bus lane and gets fined accordingly, they should probably take it on the chin.

Edited 20 hours ago by Earl Aelfheah

[Stalwart]

Gah amazing. " The bus lane is there and if it's there it must be for a good reason and must therefore be obeyed. Resistance is futile..."

It's incredible how people in this city accept and normalise nonsensical policies of councils/TF Hell etc  and merely shrug at the inconveniences they are daily subject to.

 

[Earl Aelfheah]

6 minutes ago, Stalwart said:

Gah amazing. " The bus lane is there and if it's there it must be for a good reason and must therefore be obeyed. Resistance is futile..."

It's incredible how people in this city accept and normalise nonsensical policies of councils/TF Hell etc  and merely shrug at the inconveniences they are daily subject to.

You think that we should just drive in the bus lanes? And then complain that it's 'unfair' if you get fined? 

Sounds like childish entitlement to me.

Edited 20 hours ago by Earl Aelfheah

[Stalwart]

I rest my case

 

[first mate]

Earl is just relentless; it doesn't matter how many times the person who was fined explains they were not 'caught' driving along the bus lane ( I think they said they drove across it while turning left, clipping the edge of it), Earl will insist that person is lying.  They also insisted I was lying when I posted about an upsurge in the numbers of cyclists I had seen cycling carelessly in the area.  The reason given that I must be lying was that Earl had not witnessed this, so it could not be true.

[AylwardS]

I’ve only read posts on the last page. I’ll probably be seen as one of the ones that works in the council etc. I did years ago and I can say PCNs are issued because someone did something they shouldn’t  As with all things mistakes happen and you can appeal. 
 

I didn’t see/understand/ think x was right is not a reason to appeal. 
 

Am I the only one to think rules are added because of a selfish minority?
 

Highway Code says don’t park at junctions. People do so double yellow lines go in. 
 

Highway Code says don’t park too close to crossings. People do so zigzags go in. 
 

Put your hazard lights on and you can park anywhere  Must have become a rule of the Road  

 

…

 

[Earl Aelfheah]

42 minutes ago, first mate said:

Earl is just relentless; it doesn't matter how many times the person who was fined explains they were not 'caught' driving along the bus lane ( I think they said they drove across it while turning left, clipping the edge of it), Earl will insist that person is lying. 

I don’t really care how long he was in the bus lane. There is no reason to be in it.

Yes, I’ll admit I’m a little skeptical of Rockets claims on this forum as he has repeatedly made statements that are objectively untrue in the past; Often doubling down or deflecting when caught out. He also spent a long time ducking the question of whether he’d actually been fined (you implied the suggestion was outrageous / a personal attack at the time). It is not easy to ‘clip’ the bus lane making that turn - not without clipping the curb, and the appeal notification he posted says that he was driving along the bus lane  - is that not what happened? So use your own judgment / form your own opinion.

But I actually think it’s irrelevant. If you drive across a clearly marked bus lane, there is a good chance you’ll be fined. Just drive with more care. And if you have made an error, maybe chalk it down to experience / take it on the chin.

No one, not even Rockets is suggesting that the fine was issued in error, or that he didn’t break the rules, or that the rules aren’t clear. So it really comes down to being annoyed. Which is fine, but it was a year ago! We’ve heard about it repeatedly across multiple threads. That’s relentless. 

Edited 18 hours ago by Earl Aelfheah

[Rockets]

27 minutes ago, AylwardS said:

I’ve only read posts on the last page. I’ll probably be seen as one of the ones that works in the council etc. I did years ago and I can say PCNs are issued because someone did something they shouldn’t  As with all things mistakes happen and you can appeal. 

@AylwardS whilst working at the council did you see any behaviour that suggested the motivation for PCNs was an opportunity to raise revenue or that PCNs were seen as a good way to raise revenue?

19 minutes ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

I don’t really care how long he was in the bus lane. There is no reason to be in it.

I wasn't in it - I went across it - so yes I was momentarily driving across it. What @Earl Aelfheah seems to (deliberately) ignore is the fact that, as the AA says, you only have to put one wheel over the line and councils will fine you. So whilst they relentlessly say: "you broke the rules" the debate is not whether I, and others I am sure, broke the rules, but whether the council is deliberately creating situations to get people to break the rules so they can issue money-making fines. Clearly, the AA thinks they are. I am sure others who pass that junction and compare it to the TFL ones at Underhill and Wood Vale will feel the same (interestingly the image that Earl shared from GoogleMaps creates a bit of an optical and doesn't show how close to the apex of the junction the bus lane actually finishes at Overhill).@Earl Aelfheah clearly doesn't and that's their prerogative but I would sense that they are probably in the minority as any rational and balanced analysis of the three junctions in question would validate the theory that councils are making it easier for drivers to break the rules and for the council to make money.

 

30 minutes ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

Yes, I’ll admit I’m a little skeptical of Rockets claims on this forum as he has repeatedly made statements that are objectively untrue in the past.

You're more than a "little sceptical" 😉 I do find this a little rich coming from you when you aggressively argued that there was majority support for the DV LTNs during the consultation when the reality was majority opposition. #justsaying

I do think councils will probably lose their powers to police these things themselves if they continue to abuse the powers they have been given. It is clear there is a growing narrative that councils are abusing their powers and sooner or later they will have to course-correct or lose the powers they have been entrusted with. But let's be honest, council's could admit that they were laying money-making traps for drivers and some on here would probably still try to defend them!

[malumbu]

There is no growing narrative.  Sunak published a motorists' charter which made sod all difference to his election. The AA and others have a whinge.  It's not going to happen (strip the powers of local authorities).  Even under Reform/Far-age.

As said above @AylwardS "PCNs are issued because someone did something they shouldn’t"

[Earl Aelfheah]

1 hour ago, Rockets said:

I do find this a little rich coming from you when you aggressively argued that there was majority support for the DV LTNs during the consultation when the reality was majority opposition. #justsaying

This claim doesn't get any truer the more you repeat it. I said that in the "Dulwich Review Consultation Report (August 2021) 55 per cent supported the aims set out in its ‘Streets for People’ initiative". That's not aggressive. It's a fact. You repeatedly misrepresent that comment when challenged on your numerous, objectively false and misleading claims... a little ironic.

Cut through all the usual nonsense and you're just relentlessly moaning about getting fined from being in a bus lane when you shouldn't have been, whether that's driving in it (as the appeal letter says), or driving across it, as you say. Neither change the fact that you were correctly issued with a fine and you've been throwing a very long, slow, public tantrum about it over many months now.

Edited 16 hours ago by Earl Aelfheah

[ianr]

1 hour ago, Rockets said:

I wasn't in it - I went across it - so yes I was momentarily driving across it.

Was this apparent in the photograph they provided?

[snowy]

Given their repeated posts, it sounds like rockets drove to Wales and got caught on Overhill, The Westway and a Welsh 20mph road!

[Rockets]

9 minutes ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

This claim doesn't get any truer the more you repeat it. I said that in the "Dulwich Review Consultation Report (August 2021) 55 per cent supported the aims set out in its ‘Streets for People’ initiative". It is a fact. You repeatedly misquote it, when confronted with your numerous, objectively false claims, scattered across different threads. If that's the best you've got, you've not got much. 

Ha ha, the bit you missed off was that you were responding to a question to back-up your assertion that there was majority support for the LTNs. What you actually said was "majority support recorded for both schemes during consultation" and when challenged you presented the 55% stat - which was, as you might say, objectively false.

 

13 minutes ago, ianr said:

Was this apparent in the photograph they provided?

Yes it does and look even the wording of the letter from my appeal confirms that, according to Southwark bus lanes finish when they are level with the turning (always interesting to note that TFL the bus lanes further along the road break well before the turning) - they very much appear to be implementing what the AA referred to as "one wheel over the line". Of course, for some, that is perfectly reasonable but those of a more reasonable disposition may think it is a bit underhand and part of a money-making exercise from the council. I bet it is earning them a fortune.

When you are driving alongside a bus lane and you wish to take a left turning up ahead, you must not enter the bus lane too
soon and drive along it before reaching the turning. Instead, you need to turn across the bus lane at the point - usually level
with the turning - where its line has changed from solid to broken or where arrows on the road show where to turn.

 

 

[snowy]

21 minutes ago, ianr said:

Was this apparent in the photograph they provided?

It's a very much like Bill Clinton's 'I didn't inhale' excuse isn't it.

[Rockets]

4 minutes ago, snowy said:

It's a very much like Bill Clinton's 'I didn't inhale' excuse isn't it.

Did the council issue a PCN for him too.....my goodness me!!! Is no-one safe from their money-making exercises!!! 😉