Oh David / Is David Lammy Toast?

[HeadNun]

 

28 minutes ago, Sephiroth said:

that is one cliche-ridden post headnun 

 

it doesn’t mean a sack of beans in the real world 

“old fashioned voters” meaning the ones dragging the country down this last 15 years just to laugh at the libs tears. Well done all 

I’m not looking back at all. This is not a post Europe world in any sense. There are forces bigger than Europe but uk would be better aligning with Europe against, say, china, the pretending we live in some post Europe world. 
 

and in case you hadn’t noticed, whoever you vote for, there are a LOT of ignorant racists feeling very happy with their resurgence - I would fight against them if I were you 

I don't need you to tell me to 'fight against' racism.  I know what it looks it like, thank you. 

And China would be our enemy whether we were in Europe or not (and has been for a long time), so that's immaterial. 

I remember covering an EDL march 12 years ago, when there was a Cons-Lib Dem coalition, so the idea that this is a new problem is rubbish. BUT Reform is doing an excellent job of galvanising a minority in reaction to smug liberals like you, who blame the electorate's collective ignorance for all the country's demons. 

What right have you for a moral mandate? 

Edited 12 hours ago by HeadNun
ch-ch-chaaaanges

[Sephiroth]

What is your beef with me ? Why are you asking rhetorical questions? 

fighting me but excusing reform?

have a look in the mirror 

you’ve lost your way 

[HeadNun]

I don't have a beef with you. But I do have a beef with people who feel that a certain portion of the public's opinion isn't valid. 

I don't like racism any more than anyone else here. But I do dislike the idea that an individual's thoughts, beliefs and feelings, no matter how much I may disagree with them, are somehow worth less than my own. 

And I get the sense that that is what many disenfranchised voters are feeling - that they are being looked down upon as ignorant, racists who have no right to be in the conversation. And that's what brings out people on the margins and drives them towards extremes, like Reform. 

Whether you like it or not, the racist, bigot, anti-european nextdoor to you has just as much say in the country as you do. Intellectual superiority is never going to bring them round. 

[Sephiroth]

That is a bit cake and eat it tho, isn’t it? 
 

At what point do we stop respecting other people’s opinions and beliefs 

because history shows us we sometimes simply have no other choice 

you are holding some comfort blanket that allows you to believe we are all equal and all valid and we can simply voice different options - without that ever  impacting on the real world 

Were the racists we fought in previous generations different? Were their beliefs patronised by the elites of the time? Or do we learn lessons and avoid mistakes of the past?

 

racists/bigots having “just as much to say” is both true and yet, a thing we have learnt from the past. The lesson was not “ooh let’s hear them out. They sound interesting and valid and as worthy of an audience as people who hold the opposite opinion” 

[malumbu]

18 minutes ago, Sephiroth said:

What is your beef with me ? Why are you asking rhetorical questions? 

fighting me but excusing reform?

have a look in the mirror 

you’ve lost your way 

I'd quit this thread, let those who just want to slag Labour off have their own thread.  Your views on the economy are worth debating.  I'm just stunned how there wasn't this level of noise with the last government.  I could try to get some dirt on Badenoch but she is pointless  Whilst I am not a fan of the Daily Mirror at least there is some respite from Labour bashing.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/grenfell-hillsborough-families-make-powerful-36175862

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/nigel-farage-facing-parliamentary-investigation-36188612

 

[HeadNun]

10 minutes ago, Sephiroth said:

That is a bit cake and eat it tho, isn’t it? 
 

At what point do we stop respecting other people’s opinions and beliefs 

because history shows us we sometimes simply have no other choice 

you are holding some comfort blanket that allows you to believe we are all equal and all valid and we can simply voice different options - without that ever  impacting on the real world 

Were the racists we fought in previous generations different? Were their beliefs patronised by the elites of the time? Or do we learn lessons and avoid mistakes of the past?

 

racists/bigots having “just as much to say” is both true and yet, a thing we have learnt from the past. The lesson was not “ooh let’s hear them out. They sound interesting and valid and as worthy of an audience as people who hold the opposite opinion” 

Yes, these are all good points. I agree with you, that division has led us down dangerous paths in the past. And I deplore any kind of racism (as I think you probably know). 

But I feel that a lot of the current wave of xenophobia we're witnessing is actually more about a general malaise and discontent. I know non-white people around here who are surprisingly vocal about immigrants - legal or otherwise. I think this feeling transcends skin colour for a lot of people and isn't as simple as, say, the Jew hatred of the 1930s or the Irish and Black racism that we saw laterally. I think people feel ignored and looked down upon. 

What you don't realise, Sephiroth, is that I actually agree with a lot of what you're saying. I just think that looking down on people because of their voting history and opinions is self-defeating. And that's where Labour's getting it wrong and Reform is reaping the rewards. 

 

[malumbu]

The current wave of xenophobia is due to powerful/influential people stirring up hatred.  It;'s what happened in the past, think 1930s Germany.  It seems to be even easier now as so many get their information from social media, whether it is right or wrong.  The media seeking so called balance will bring some nutter on, they don't then bring a nutter on to counteract that. They now seem to turn to Reform at the first opportunity.

So your life is 'shite', let;s blame someone else.  Whilst sounding a bit like a Tory, taking some ownership/personal responsibility would be a start.  There are some situations where that may be more challenging, in deindustrialised 'left behind' wasteland we can't all get on our bikes and find work.  But I loathe how it is now popular to blame those of us from relatively modest backgrounds, like me, who did see education and knowledge as a way to self improve. Now we are seen by some as smug liberals......

 

[Sephiroth]

8 hours ago, HeadNun said:

Yes, these are all good points. I agree with you, that division has led us down dangerous paths in the past. And I deplore any kind of racism (as I think you probably know). 

But I feel that a lot of the current wave of xenophobia we're witnessing is actually more about a general malaise and discontent. I know non-white people around here who are surprisingly vocal about immigrants - legal or otherwise. I think this feeling transcends skin colour for a lot of people and isn't as simple as, say, the Jew hatred of the 1930s or the Irish and Black racism that we saw laterally. I think people feel ignored and looked down upon. 

What you don't realise, Sephiroth, is that I actually agree with a lot of what you're saying. I just think that looking down on people because of their voting history and opinions is self-defeating. And that's where Labour's getting it wrong and Reform is reaping the rewards. 

 

A lot to agree with here - don’t get me started on Irish people complaining about immigration! - but that final paragraph is once again a cop out 

there’s a lot of extreme right wing money stirring up the division that people are feeling - but there is zero excuse for handing power to these people. We live in a democracy and if we have enough people willing to give it up then judging those people foolish enough to do so is not only something that will happen, it is something that the rest of us should be morally compelled to do 

if someone wouldn’t “normally” vote for a racist party yet somehow will do so because they hear someone like me saying that would be bad, then you better believe I’m judging them

[CPR Dave]

Labour have changed a number of things overnight.

 

1. VAT on school fees - this has resulted in 25,000 moving until state education.

2. Increasing NICs adding billions to the cost of going to work.

3. Introducing the Employment Rights Bill causing employers to stop hiring. This and item 2 have added 100,000 people to the unemployment scrapheap. These are also causing businesses to relocate further harming the economy.

4. Scrapping all the small boats deterrents meaning 60,000 illegal migrants have arrived in small boats since they were elected.

5. Dishing out huge public sector payroses with no conditions so we have a massively increased payroll and doctors etc arestill going out on strike.

6.changed IHT and non domicile tax rules causing 16,500 millionaires to leave the UK and stop paying any tax here at all forever.

7. Alongside 6, leaving the budget up until an historically late period after the last budget has caused a house price crash, killing the market and decimating government stamp duty receipts.

8. Their profligate borrowing (£100bn extra in just one year) to fund all their lavish promises means the government can now only borrow at the highest ever yields on records. They are more beholden to the bond markets than Liz Truss was.

9. The rate of inflation has doubled under this government. It was a healthy 2% when they came in. For most of the last year, as a result of all of the above it is now nearly 4%.

 

These are all decisions the Labour government took that have immediate cause and effect.  Its no good harking back to 15 years ago. The current administration was gifted the fastest growing economy in the G7 and within 15 months they have destroyed it. 

 

And things are only going to get worse this winter.