More big increases in cycling

[Earl Aelfheah]

Yes thanks. Are you going to address any of the points i've made, or questions I've asked before posing new ones?

In the video you've dug out, they're naturally talking about what has changed relatively recently. One contributor does reference new Bike lanes. As I said, above:

4 hours ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

yes, some of the road space that has been re-allocated for cycle lanes will have had an impact

That is not the same as saying that bike lanes are the primary cause of carriageway pressure. As first mate has pointed out: 

1 hour ago, first mate said:

They all agreed that carriageway pressure is one of the major contributing factors (along with roadworks).

What do you think is the primary cause of carriageway pressure? Do you think it's likely to be from the much fewer people travelling on small bicycles, or the much greater number of people travelling in big private motor vehicles? 

There aren't even any segregated bike lanes round here that I can think of. There are lot's of cars on the roads though, and they have got bigger - turning roads that previously functioned as two-way streets, into ones where cars have to constantly stop to let each other pass. Do you think that bicycles are the thing that are slowing local buses down? Really?

And can we assume you'd support removing some parking on Lordship Lane and making the bus lane 24/7 to increase journey times? Seeing as you're definitely, genuinely, concerned about the issue. 

Edited yesterday at 16:45 by Earl Aelfheah

[Rockets]

7 minutes ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

One contributor does reference new Bike lanes are one of those things.

Three of the four experts reference it and they talk about it for some time as one of the key factors in bus delays. 

8 minutes ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

Do you think it's likely to be from the much smaller number of people travelling on bicycles, or the much larger number of people travelling in big private motor vehicles? 

But they are talking about bus lanes - did you hear the union member saying that sharing bus lanes with bikes is great and needed for cycle safety but buses are being delayed by bikes as they cannot overtake them? 

I suggest no-one listen to @Earl Aelfheah and watches ten minutes of the video from the point at about 1 hour 7 minutes. It's very, very clear what they are discussing and the expert opinion they share.

 

[malumbu]

23 hours ago, Rockets said:

oh @malumbu......you know two days ago there was a London Assembly Transport Committee meeting to discuss why London buses are continuing to get slower and slower and why people are abandoning buses as a result....a panel of experts joined to discuss it - including a bus company, London Travel Watch and two union reps.

Here is the link. Scroll to 1 hour 7 minutes in and have a listen for 10 minutes or so and see what the experts conclude and let me know what you think: 

 

 

Reduced bus patronage due to slower bus journey times has been an issue for a number of years.  I'll let TfL and the boroughs work that out.

You have posted hundreds of posts that are anti-cyclist and anti support for increasing cycling.  Don't suddenly pretend you are our friend.

[Rockets]

Have you watched the video @malumbu?

1 minute ago, malumbu said:

You have posted hundreds of posts that are anti-cyclist and anti support for increasing cycling.  Don't suddenly pretend you are our friend.

Ouch! 😉

[Earl Aelfheah]

14 hours ago, first mate said:

One specifically cited cycle lanes

@Rockets I was responding to first mate, when I agreed that a contributor does reference bike lanes. 🤣

Are you are not going to address any of the points made, answer any questions, or correct your false statements about a promise that was never made?

Basically you're scratching around, jumping from argument to argument, determined to make out that the increase in cycling you said could never happen, is either overstated, or somehow a bad thing. Just admit you're wrong for once in your life.

Edited 14 hours ago by Earl Aelfheah

[Rockets]

33 minutes ago, malumbu said:

Reduced bus patronage due to slower bus journey times has been an issue for a number of years.  I'll let TfL and the boroughs work that out.

That was the point of the London Assembly Transport Committee meeting, to get expert opinion on what is causing the delays to buses. TFL is being called in January to present their thoughts.

[first mate]

2 hours ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

What do you think is the primary cause of carriageway pressure?

I'd go with the expert opinion at the LA panel which seemed balanced and reasonable. In the part I listened to, traffic and parking was mentioned (especially couriers) but no more emphasised than cycle lanes, public utilities- 'emergency' works (especially Thames Water), road design interventions like box junctions (viewed by the bus driver rep as primarily about money-making). 

Strangely, no mention of car length or size.

[Rockets]

Unfortunately some people don't want balance and reasonableness as it doesnt suit their personal agenda. It's clear there are problems because the approach to active travel has been anything but balanced.

[Earl Aelfheah]

13 hours ago, first mate said:

Strangely, no mention of car length or size

Not in that one clip Rockets has picked. But the London Assembly has debated the issue and signed a motion, calling on Sadiq Khan to address it, as cars are ‘getting bigger with every passing year, creating congestion, taking up limited space on our streets and adding danger’. Rockets hasn’t linked to that particular discussion. 

This is the thing. There is no ‘balance’ when you start from a position where you are determined to prove a position you’ve already taken, and seek out ‘evidence’ according - in this case looking to undermine a growth in cycling you’ve repeatedly said couldn’t happen, but has.

The fact that that this is now Rockets third attempt to find an angle, really is revealing.

@firstmate If (as it appears) you’re suggesting the primary cause of congestion in London is bicycles, you are just wrong.

Edited 13 hours ago by Earl Aelfheah

[first mate]

7 minutes ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

If (as it appears) you’re suggesting the primary cause of congestion in London is bicycles, you are just wrong.

I think I have made clear, as indicated in the LA session, it is multifactorial. Car length and size was not mentioned as a factor but cycle lanes were.

Can you link to the other discussion you refer to?

[Earl Aelfheah]

2 hours ago, first mate said:

I think I have made clear, as indicated in the LA session, it is multifactorial.

We agree on that. Fundamentally there are more vehicles (cars, vans, deliveries) than roads can handle, creating bottlenecks. Yes, some road space has been reallocated, but there are very few segregated bike lanes outside of Central, and it is very clear that bicycles are not the primary cause of congestion.

If you are concerned to see improvements in bus services, would you support bus priority measures and 24/7 bus lanes (for example the one on Lordship Lane), or the removal of car parking on main roads?

Edited 10 hours ago by Earl Aelfheah

[first mate]

24 minutes ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

Fundamentally there are more vehicles (cars, vans, deliveries) than roads can handle, creating bottlenecks.

This is your conclusion, not that of the LA session. I got the impression from that session that vehicles numbers had plateaued if not dropped but multiple journeys by delivery drivers were possibly an issue. Changes to road structure (cycle lanes and box junctions) were mentioned as factors, but not car size or length- can you link to the LA session where the latter was discussed?

30 minutes ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

If you are concerned to see improvements in bus services, would you support bus priority measure and 24/7 bus lanes (for example the one Lordship Lane), or the removal of car parking main roads?

As stated before, the Council's CPZ plans have made a point of ring fencing (possibly increasing) parking on LL to facilitate shoppers visiting in cars. They felt it was necessary to balance the needs of car-using shoppers against those of residents and to protect businesses.

At the time the ED CPZ was mooted I raised the issue of bus flow but posters who generally support these sort of interventions seemed unconcerned (perhaps playing the long game).

[Penguin68]

24/7 bus lanes in any areas where traffic levels are clearly not 24/7 intense only exist to raise fines, they do not facilitate through flow of bus traffic outside peak hours. There are places in London where they offer genuine benefits to bus travellers but LL is not one of them IMHO. This is a typical response of those who wish to see private vehicle traffic repressed and penalised, which of course is a legitimate point of view, which I do not share, but see it for what it is. 

[Rockets]

1 hour ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

We agree on that. Fundamentally there are more vehicles (cars, vans, deliveries) than roads can handle, creating bottlenecks. Yes, some road space has been reallocated, but there are very few segregated bike lanes outside of Central, and it is very clear that bicycles are not the primary cause of congestion.

And they were concluding that some of the interventions were squeezing traffic making less and less available roadspace even though there was less vehicular traffic on the roads.

The Travel Watch person said that he could not find stats on how much of the road space had been dedicated to cycle lanes or shared usage but he did cite the example of Chiswich High Road where the bus lanes had been removed to facilitate dedicated cycle lanes (I am not sure you would consider that Central).

I thought the debate was very balanced; that they acknowledged the problems caused by slowing buses, discussed all of the factors contributing to it yet acknowledged the challenges of balancing priorities but it was very clear that one of the contributing factors is the provision of cycle infrastrucutre (that they all acknowledged was needed to keep cyclists safe).

Well intended changes can often have negative consequences.

@Penguin68 I am going to watch the video again where they mention growing evidence that some of the roads with most interventions to aid bus flow are some of the worst performing. It seemed to be something there was consensus that needed more analysis but it wasn't clear what they meant by interventions as they mentioned bus gates which are more of an LTN thing.

Edited 11 hours ago by Rockets

[Earl Aelfheah]

2 hours ago, first mate said:

This is your conclusion, not that of the LA session

You don’t have to outsource your thinking to someone else. You seem to be disagreeing that, fundamentally congestion is the result of there being more vehicles (cars, vans, deliveries) than roads can handle; This is the very definition of congestion.

If you want to reallocate space to speed up buses, you don’t go after a really small part of the overall allocation, dedicated to the form of private transport that is the least polluting, moves the highest number of people for the least amount of road space, and has significant public health / ROI benefits. 

Edited 10 hours ago by Earl Aelfheah

[Rockets]

One of the challenges discussed is the reallocation of spaces dedicated to speed up buses to cycles and this has been identified as one of the causes of  slowing of the buses.

Congestion is also being caused by the removal of space allocated to all road vehicles. This is why the guy from Travel Watch said vehicular traffic has been consistently dropping during the same period as the slowing of buses has been getting consistently worse.

Clearly roadworks are a big issue and the guy from the bus company said this was being temporarily exacerbated by the removal of alternative routes around roadworks.

[Rockets]

2 hours ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

If you want to reallocate space to speed up buses, you don’t go after a really small part of the overall allocation, dedicated to the form of private transport that is the least polluting, moves the highest number of people for the least amount of road space, and has significant public health / ROI benefits. 

Hmmm, you may have overlooked walking as that performs the best in regard to your metrics.

[first mate]

@Earl Aelfheah said: "You don’t have to outsource your thinking to someone else."

Of course you are entitled to your views, but I don't view agreeing with a panel of experts as 'outsourcing my thinking'. 
 

Unless you can tell us that you have a greater level of expertise and knowledge on factors affecting slowing bus speeds in London, I am more inclined to take on board their opinions than yours.

However, if you feel you have greater expertise then do tell us?

I am genuinely interested to hear the session you cited where car length and size is considered a major factor in current congestion issues. Please share.

Edited 7 hours ago by first mate

[Spartacus]

Would be interesting to see comparative figures for 

1. UnAssisted Cycling 

2. Power Assisted Cycling /electric bikes

3. Walking

4. Bus usage 

5. Tube usage 

6. Driving (car and motorbike) 

7. Taxi 

To see if increases in Cycling have changed other modes of transport and where reductions have occurred (if any) 

[malumbu]

Last report from TFL (a year ago), based on trips rather than mileage.

Some recovery post Covid, particularly buses.  Walking fairly static.  Cycling up. Low utility of cars, ie more than one person.  Dreadful.  Long term trends difficult to determine particularly due to the impact of Covid and more working from home.  Mileage as well as number of trips would be useful - walking would drop and public transport/motorised transport increase as most walks will be relatively short distance.

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/travel-in-london-2024-consolidated-estimates-of-total-travel-and-mode-shares-acc.pdf

None of my usual bus routes are affected by bike infrastructure beyond the odd advanced lights.  There are some roads that I use infrequently that are awful such as the mess around parliament square and now extending to Lambeth bridge with the new junction layout.

If I was to drive I'd use Vauxhall Bridge in any case being the main vehicle thoroughfare on the West side of central London.

Make of the above what you will.,  I've lost the will to live on a number of threads and only posting because I am aware of where to gets some of the data.