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Hi Peckhamgatecrasher,

Adys Road a little outside East Dulwich ward - but if it was closed Crystal Palace Road would be less busy ;o)


Hi Andrew1011,

Are you speaking as resident of Melbourne Grove?

The police said they were amazed at how many vehicles use the southern section of Melbourne Grove each day. Looking at traffic stat for all our local roads it clearly is experiencing much more traffic than 90% of the other residential roads in the area.


hi BNG,

The submission from the deputation at June DCC showed a majority of residents of Melbourne Grove. So perhaps I over egged when I said most and should have stated majority. This assumes non have since changed their minds.


Hi F1,

I don't know Clapham.

How have they solved this type of problem? Perhaps a visit is in order.


hi Robin,

I think it does. you think it doesn't. The council officer report should be able to nail this one way or another.

But 15% of traffic going over 25mph is many hundreds of vehicles each day speeding. You think this means no speeding problem as average speed 19mph. I think 15% going greater than 25mph is a speeding problem.

James,


I've posted this question a number of times now, so hoping you will see it this time?


You asked which DCC I was referring to re double yellows on Chesterfield. Please see below, posted by you, where it states you were consulted on the Order that covers those double yellows.


I want to know if when consulted you gave a yes or a no? If yes, for what reason and why for new lengths of double yellows to be installed on Chestefield?


You were consulted on 10 April 2014.


When first asked about double yellows you emailed the council and posted their response, along with this below


"

Thus is the email I've received and I've responded asking for a guarantee no additional lining of any kind or double yellow lines etc will be added as a consequence.


"

Southwark Council - Member enquiry


Our Reference: 551054

________________________________________



Dear Councillor Barber


Thank you for your enquiry dated 12th August 2015, in which you requested information regarding yellow lines in the East Dulwich ward. I believe you are referring to the recent making and publication of a 'consolidation order'.


The traffic order which has been advertised is known as a 'consolidation order' which is exactly this -a consolidation of existing traffic orders to ensure these remain manageable and easy to follow. This London Borough of Southwark (Waiting and loading restrictions) Consolidation Order 2015(1) ('the 2015 Order') consolidates the London Borough of Southwark (Waiting and loading restrictions) Consolidation Order 2012(2) ('the 2012 Order') together with the 60 subsequent amendment orders amending the provisions of the 2012 Order.

It is deemed best practice (e.g. in guidelines issued by the British Parking Association) for local authorities undertaking decriminalised parking enforcement to regularly consolidate and maintain the traffic orders forming a basis for that enforcement.

This follows the Consolidation Order process laid out in Regulation 21 of the Local Authorities? Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996 (Statutory Instrument 1996 No. 2489).

There are no new restrictions being introduced by way of this consolidation order.

The yellow lines you have specifically queried at Ashbourne and Chesterfield and Melbourne Grove were originally included in an order made on 8 May 2014 as part of the Lordship Lane area traffic order and sign decluttering review . The name of the Order was the London Borough of Southwark (Waiting and loading restrictions) (Amendment No. 32) Order 2014(3) ('the 2014 Order').


As part of our review process, surveys on street were undertaken by an officer to check that the road markings in existence matched the traffic orders. In the case of Ashbourne Grove and Melbourne Grove the traffic order waiting and loading definitions would have been amended to reflect more closely the markings as existed on street. Chesterfield Road had new lengths of restrictions installed at this time.


Statutory stakeholders and ward members including yourself were consulted in the process of making the 2014 Order, on 10 April 2014.


I trust this addresses your concerns but if you have any questions about this response please do not hesitate to contact me.

"


--------------------

Regards [email protected]

07900 227366

Liberal Democrat Councillor for East Dulwich Ward

Skype cllrjamesbarber

[www.jamesbarber.org.uk]

[twitter.com]




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was august 15, 06:33am by first mate.

James Barber Wrote:


> hi BNG,

> The submission from the deputation at June DCC

> showed a majority of residents of Melbourne Grove.

> So perhaps I over egged when I said most and

> should have stated majority. This assumes non have

> since changed their minds.


I thought you'd said they wanted traffic calming of some kind. That's got nothing to do with preventing cars from using the road. Until we see the petition, we won't know for sure. Please can someone post it here.

I really cannot see why there is a problem..

I certainly would not use Melbourne Grove as a rat run. Its simply too narrow.


The only time I ever use it is when walking to Dulwich Hospital..


Where in other places such systems have be set up (there are many) we see more traffic with drivers

driving around lost in the Labyrynths of one way streets, no entrys and blocked of roads .


DulwichFox

Hi BNG


You may have seen my posts on the Melbourne Grove thread about the so-called 'petition'. I was sent a copy by Southwark Council officers. I do not think it right to post it publicly as it contains people's private details.


The document is in fact a 'deputation request' - almost a full side of A4 stating concerns about the speed and volume of traffic on Melbourne Grove and asking for a barrier, more double yellow lines, and any other traffic calming measures that the council can come up with. This page is signed by five people. Attached to this document are a further five and half pages of signatures. There is no statement at the top of any of these pages indicating what measure the signatories are supporting. This means that these pages of signatures do not constitute a 'petition' in favour of a defined measure. The rules on petitions are clear.


So these signatures can only be viewed as adding weight to a general request for traffic calming measures. They do not constitute support for a barrier. They may have been gathered at any time during an ongoing campaign which began with a request for full speed bumps.


I have also seen the officers' report which Southwark Highways Department prepared in response to concerns about traffic on Melbourne Grove. This report was made available to Councillors at the last DCC meeting. You'll see rch quoting from it in recent posts here and on the Melbourne Grove thread. The report makes it clear that the Highways Department do not think the current data on speed and volume of traffic on Melbourne Grove make it a priority. They do not express support for a barrier or speed bumps. They are interested in extending the double yellow lines. It's interesting to note that at least one councillor at the last DCC meeting - on seeing the report - chose not to give their support to a feasibility study looking into traffic calming on Melbourne Grove (including a barrier).


As I understand it there is a degree of pointlessness in entering into a feasibility study when the Highways Department have expressed such a view.


I'm co-ordinating with a number of local residents who want a more informed and joined-up approach to traffic management in the area. We now have a formal petition - opposing a barrier on Melbourne Grove - on change.org and a central email address for anyone interested in this issue. Details will be posted shortly on the Melbourne Grove thread.

Hi James, is there a section of the Southwark website that has details of what the "council officer report" will be based on? I am particularly keen to understand the scope or terms of reference of the feasiblity study.


Many thanks

Jenny1 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Hi BNG

>

> The document is in fact a 'deputation request' -

> almost a full side of A4 stating concerns about

> the speed and volume of traffic on Melbourne Grove

> and asking for a barrier, more double yellow

> lines, and any other traffic calming measures that

> the council can come up with. This page is signed

> by five people. Attached to this document are a

> further five and half pages of signatures. There

> is no statement at the top of any of these pages

> indicating what measure the signatories are

> supporting. This means that these pages of

> signatures do not constitute a 'petition' in

> favour of a defined measure. The rules on

> petitions are clear.


Tnanks, Jenny, that's what I thought. So can we not refer to a petition given that it clearly did not exist in the form that some claim it did?

Well I think it's important - when referring to it - to make it clear that it's not a 'formal petition', but rather a list of signatures submitted in support of a deputation request. It might sound like a 'nit picking' distinction - but actually it makes all the difference in the world.

I wouldn't quite phrase it like that.


Certainly the five signatures can be seen as 100 per cent in support of the long statement - the 'deputation request'.


But the council also seems happy to accept the fact that five and a half pages of signatures have been submitted in 'support' of the deputation. But this support is very general. Those signatures can't be seen as being in 'support' of any specific measure because there's no statement at the top of any of the pages of signatures. If you want to make a 'formal petition' you have to make sure that there's a brief, clear statement at the top of all of the pages stating what people are signing up to - for understandable reasons.


Nothing 'wrong' has been done here in submitting the deputation request - and the accompanying pages of signatures - to the DCC. The only problem appears to be in the interpretation that some councillors may have placed on what's been presented to them. They may have interpreted it as a 'formal petition' in favour of a specific measure - whereas in fact it was a list of signatures showing general support for traffic calming.

Actually, of the five signatures included in support of the deputation request, one name actually doesn't include a signature, just a printed name and address, so technically it doesn't qualify. Also, I believe that another of the five names listed has actually moved out of London now.


This process has been very useful in that we've learned a lot about the legal and constitutional aspects of petitions, which is one reason why we have delayed until we are sure of all the parameters.

Hi James. No. It's the same document. It's simply that when I asked to see the deputation request and supporting 'petition' I was sent the essential items - the request itself and the attached pages of signatures. The council officers - understandly - did not see a need to send any of the covering photos, maps etc.

James,


I've posted this question a number of times now, so hoping you will see it this time?


You asked which DCC I was referring to re double yellows on Chesterfield. Please see below, posted by you, where it states you were consulted on the Order that covers those double yellows.


I want to know if when consulted you gave a yes or a no? If yes, for what reason and why for new lengths of double yellows to be installed on Chestefield?


You were consulted on 10 April 2014.


When first asked about the prospect of more double yellows on the forum this year you emailed the council and posted their response, along with this below


"

Thus is the email I've received and I've responded asking for a guarantee no additional lining of any kind or double yellow lines etc will be added as a consequence.


"

Southwark Council - Member enquiry


Our Reference: 551054

________________________________________



Dear Councillor Barber


Thank you for your enquiry dated 12th August 2015, in which you requested information regarding yellow lines in the East Dulwich ward. I believe you are referring to the recent making and publication of a 'consolidation order'.


The traffic order which has been advertised is known as a 'consolidation order' which is exactly this -a consolidation of existing traffic orders to ensure these remain manageable and easy to follow. This London Borough of Southwark (Waiting and loading restrictions) Consolidation Order 2015(1) ('the 2015 Order') consolidates the London Borough of Southwark (Waiting and loading restrictions) Consolidation Order 2012(2) ('the 2012 Order') together with the 60 subsequent amendment orders amending the provisions of the 2012 Order.

It is deemed best practice (e.g. in guidelines issued by the British Parking Association) for local authorities undertaking decriminalised parking enforcement to regularly consolidate and maintain the traffic orders forming a basis for that enforcement.

This follows the Consolidation Order process laid out in Regulation 21 of the Local Authorities? Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996 (Statutory Instrument 1996 No. 2489).

There are no new restrictions being introduced by way of this consolidation order.

The yellow lines you have specifically queried at Ashbourne and Chesterfield and Melbourne Grove were originally included in an order made on 8 May 2014 as part of the Lordship Lane area traffic order and sign decluttering review . The name of the Order was the London Borough of Southwark (Waiting and loading restrictions) (Amendment No. 32) Order 2014(3) ('the 2014 Order').


As part of our review process, surveys on street were undertaken by an officer to check that the road markings in existence matched the traffic orders. In the case of Ashbourne Grove and Melbourne Grove the traffic order waiting and loading definitions would have been amended to reflect more closely the markings as existed on street. Chesterfield Road had new lengths of restrictions installed at this time.


Statutory stakeholders and ward members including yourself were consulted in the process of making the 2014 Order, on 10 April 2014.


I trust this addresses your concerns but if you have any questions about this response please do not hesitate to contact me.

"


--------------------

Regards [email protected]

07900 227366

Liberal Democrat Councillor for East Dulwich Ward

Skype cllrjamesbarber

[www.jamesbarber.org.uk]

[twitter.com]




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was august 15, 06:33am by first mate.




Edited 2 time(s). Last edit was today, 09:23am by first mate.

Hi first mate,

Officer has stated an order was made 8 May 2014. I will hunt though minutes over the next fortnight to try and track down which meeting before then would have made that decision and then provide a link so you can see the relevant documentation - and I'd very much like to check it out.

As the officer stated the consolidation order will amalgamate 60 different amendments since 2012.

James, Yes,


The Order was made 8th of May 2014, as you say


BUT


The consultation which the officer states included you, was 10th April 2014, so that must be the date you need to hunt out.


It is all there in the document posted earlier.


I'd really like to know the rationale for needing to add new lengths of double yellows onto Chesterfield.

So, James, if it's not the same document that the DCC clerk sent Jenny then what statement was at the top of the document of signatures that the councillors received?? No one in the council seems to know what the collection of signatures are asking for... the one submitted to the DCC has no statement of purpose and no one knows what the DCC underspend funding is allocated for?! Or, if they know, they're not telling the public...

James Barber Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------


> Hi Andrew1011,

> Are you speaking as resident of Melbourne Grove?

> The police said they were amazed at how many

> vehicles use the southern section of Melbourne

> Grove each day. Looking at traffic stat for all

> our local roads it clearly is experiencing much

> more traffic than 90% of the other residential

> roads in the area.

>

What else would I be speaking as in this case?


There seems to be a lot of disagreement about what the statistics show about Melbourne Grove, and yours doesn't strike me as an accurate interpretation of them.


Admit it James, you've shot your bolt on this one by jumping on a bandwagon and rushing to be quoted in the press as being in favour of what was only mentioned by one of your councillor colleagues as just one possible option of many, if any were required, to calm traffic. Closure has clearly been jumped on as the only acceptable option by those who organised the 'petition'; probably encouraged in that by you.

Yes, I admit it. Police funded a traffic count that showed significantly more vehicles than I had appreciated with a significant proportion speeding along Melbourne Grove and I want to help resident fix that.

The idea of closing that section of Melbourne Grove is appealing and I'm keen to see what an officer report says would be the consequences and also other options and consequences.

You have me banged to rights for trying to help people.


And yes when newspapers call me up I sometimes get quoted by them. I'm not very good at giving them sound bites so I don't get so many calls as I should court.

The police traffic count does NOT show a significant proportion of speeding along Melbourne Grove...!


And the idea of closing Melbourne Grove is NOT appealing to all the people who live around here, which is why an alternative petition is being launched.

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He had little influence over hiring staff. “I wasn’t given any CVs, any choice about which candidates to interview.” And with a large corporate structure, “I was always on my phone at weekends, in case someone had a question. And it wasn’t even my business.”   Chandler wanted to go it alone. But he was constrained by a “non-compete” clause which prevented any veterinary business within a very tight radius around a Medivet clinic from opening. “Considering Medivet has 70-odd clinics in London, it’s almost impossible to find an area where you could set up a clinic without triggering a non-compete issue.”   ‘We’re not owned by somebody in an office in a different country’ When he heard that Medivet were selling off clinics at knockdown prices, he jumped at the opportunity. He is now the co-owner of Brockwell Vets in Herne Hill, south London. His business partner is Jenny Kalogera, a veterinary surgeon and original owner of Brockwell Vets, who’d sold it to Medivet in 2021.   “She didn’t like how it was run. Clients went elsewhere, and that was sad for her to see. When it was up for sale, I approached her. She said: ‘Why don’t we go into partnership together?’”   “People love that we are independent,” says Chandler. He is now proud to set his own prices. “We charge £49.50 for a consultation and our dental fee is around £400 – significantly cheaper than the local corporate vet.”   The Oxford Cat Clinic is another practice that was bought back from Medivet as a consequence of the CMA’s merger investigation. Weatherall, 58, had worked as the practice manager at the clinic for nine or so years when it was bought by Medivet in June 2022. She stayed on, along with the vets who’d founded the clinic 16 years before.   Barely six months later, in January 2023, the CMA started to investigate and the clinic’s relationship with Medivet was paused. “We didn’t have a lot of time to be absorbed into the great Medivet machine,” says Weatherall. But it was long enough to get an insight into how things worked.   “In a big corporate environment, you haven’t got the people who make decisions on the ground with you. It’s all centralised which is obviously more cost-effective. Which meant, for example, that we had to wait an interminable amount of time to get permission to buy anything, or if anything breaks – if a door handle comes off, you’ve got to wait for someone to come out and fix it, even though it could be driving the team mad.”   When Medivet put the Oxford Cat Clinic up for sale, Weatherall decided to buy it. “I wanted to keep it out of the hands of the corporate. It’s really good for our clients to know we’re locally run. We’re not owned by somebody who’s in an office, sometimes in a different country, even, who has no idea what’s going on.”   Melanie Weatherall: 'People are frightened to go to the vets because of the cost' Melanie Weatherall: ‘People are frightened to go to the vets because of the cost’ Credit: Harry Lawlor She talks about “pragmatic” care. “I adopted a cat recently. He was a stray. He had a damaged leg. We could have had about £3,000-plus of surgery to repair the leg, but did an amputation in the surgery because that’s a cheaper option and a reasonable option.”   There should be budget vet options, says Paul Mankelow, chief vet at the Blue Cross animal charity. “I can walk into an Aldi and know it’s a different proposition to Waitrose. Similarly, do I want to fly easyJet or Emirates? It’s very clear. But it’s not clear in the veterinary market.”   But running an independent practice is not easy. “I don’t draw any money from the business,” says Weatherall. “I earn no profit whatsoever. I want to change that.”   Sadly, it looks as if the CMA market investigation is not going to be quite as effective as everyone hoped. One of its purposes was to address alleged monopolistic pricing and ownership in the veterinary industry. But there are signs the investigation has pivoted away from the more profound problems of the corporate sector.   This January, Marcus Bokkerink stepped down as chair of the CMA, just three years into his role, as the watchdog moves to better align itself with the Government’s “push for growth”. “The Government’s strategic steer to the CMA is that it shouldn’t be doing anything which gives any outward impression that the UK is not business- or investment-friendly,” says Reader. Doug Gurr, a former head of Amazon UK, is now the interim chair.   “That doesn’t mean no regulation – we all want to see safe, high-quality care. But the system has to be fair and proportionate for both large national groups and small local practices,” says Martin Coleman, chair of the CMA’s inquiry group.   “We’re very supportive of the investigation, we’re glad it’s happening. However, one of our concerns is that the remedies won’t go far enough to put any real constraints on business, but they will go far enough to create extra work and additional paperwork for people working on the front line of veterinary medicine,” says Suzanna Hudson-Cooke, branch chairman of the British Veterinary Union in Unite.   “Initially, I thought it would be great. Now I think I was naive,” says Chandler. “As a small business, we’re looking potentially at an increase in administrative burden and we’re meant to be a clinic that the CMA looks after.”   *Names have been changed     Join the conversation   Show 481 comments The Telegraph values your comments but kindly requests all posts are on topic, constructive and respectful. Please review our commenting policy. Related Topics Telegraph long reads, Dogs, Cats, Animals                         © Telegraph Media Group Holdings Limited 2025  
    • @malumbu your original post is a bit confising with multiple, possibly unrelated,  concepts thrown together. Let's address the title of the thread. What are you looking for here, objecting to people flying their national flag? Tying to draw extreme comments out or associating flag flying with the far right ?  The real qquestion possibly is should we feel ashamed to fly the flag? Possibly not, however the reasons for flying it should not be hijacked by political or extremism motivations.  We shouldn't be ashamed of our flag, but a minority seem to be using ir to incite hatred against others.  Therefore the real debate should be around how to remove the extremist views from ability to put a flag up?  I don't have an answer and we won't get one on here but good to have a discussion that may stir a few thoughts. 
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