Cameron and Europe

[SeanMacGabhann]

Anyone been following this over the last couple of days? Fantastic stuff

Cameron ditches his "cast-iron" (his words) guarantee on a refurendum, then Pierre Lellouche (French Europe minister) accused the Tories of autism in their thinking on Europe because they just repeat the same line over and over again, and the rest of the EU countries are seriously hacked off with their constant negativity

Wiliam Hague responds to that by saying Lellouch was alone and isolated in his thinking

Now there and then I thought, hang on, whatever one thinks of the Tories position on Europe, surely saying that other EU countries think the Tories are not on board isn't an outrageous stretch of the truth? How deluded would someone have to be to say "no no I think you'll find they all like us"?

Sure enough, EU countries are lining up to day to put Hague straight today. This country is going to be so busted when the Tories get elected... Allied to a declining superpower, estranged from their neighbours and too weak to deal with the upcoming Chinese dominance

[Brendan]

But we?re British don?t you know. This Europe business is nonsense. We single handedly won 2 world wars. That?s Britain against the rest of the world in case you?re wondering. What can this Europe guff possibly mean to us? Pah!

[SeanMacGabhann]

They are definitely trying to have it every which way

It's not really their position on Europe that bugs me (although I disagree with it) - it's the way they think that it doesn't matter, that other countries respect their position, that they can insult the EU as much as they like and that one French dude is "on his own" in calling them on it. That we can't cede any power to Brussels when we have been ceding power to America for years and will to to China for many more.

It's just ... weird thinking

[Brendan]

The way I see it is you can?t expect the economic benefits of being part of the EU without accepting the political responsibility. Seems Britain thinks it can though.

We?re British don?t you know.

[????]

They're annoying european politicians for sure....though of course they seem a bit nearer to the pitiful few of the european electorate who actually got a vote on it. Pesky voters.

[????]

They're annoying european politicians for sure....though of course they seem a bit nearer to the pitiful few of the european electorate who actually got a vote on it. Pesky voters.

[????]

but whatever the tories look both weaker and without much conviction as a result, agreed.

[????]

but whatever the tories look both weaker and without much conviction as a result, agreed.

[silverfox]

Yes, fascinating and I'm glad you started this thread because I'm really confused about this whole EU situation.

I understand we need Europe for both economic and political reasons and can't meet the challenges of the global economy alone.

However, there's still something of the 'little Englander' about me in that I worry about:

- giving up sovereignty to Europe

- allowing EU law to take precedence over British law

- the fact that even our MEPs (mostly unknown names and politcally light-weight) appear to be more powerful than those in Parliament

- a concern that unlike a homogeneous federal US, Europe is still divided along 19th century nation-state and cultural lines hampering agreement and resulting in dubious compromises

Post financial crisis the country doesn't have the luxury of posteuring above its weight and influence but it disturbs me when I see how the EU bullied Ireland into a second referendum on the Lisbon Treaty.

If the Conservatives do win the next election as expected I'm not sure there's much they can do except follow orders from Brussels - unless they manage to get hold of MEPs expenses claims which would probably cause a Europe-wide out cry and weaken the EU's legitimacy.

[silverfox]

Yes, fascinating and I'm glad you started this thread because I'm really confused about this whole EU situation.

I understand we need Europe for both economic and political reasons and can't meet the challenges of the global economy alone.

However, there's still something of the 'little Englander' about me in that I worry about:

- giving up sovereignty to Europe

- allowing EU law to take precedence over British law

- the fact that even our MEPs (mostly unknown names and politcally light-weight) appear to be more powerful than those in Parliament

- a concern that unlike a homogeneous federal US, Europe is still divided along 19th century nation-state and cultural lines hampering agreement and resulting in dubious compromises

Post financial crisis the country doesn't have the luxury of posteuring above its weight and influence but it disturbs me when I see how the EU bullied Ireland into a second referendum on the Lisbon Treaty.

If the Conservatives do win the next election as expected I'm not sure there's much they can do except follow orders from Brussels - unless they manage to get hold of MEPs expenses claims which would probably cause a Europe-wide out cry and weaken the EU's legitimacy.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Is sovereignty that important to you - and why? Do you not think sovereignty was forfeited after the second world war and the subsequent debt to the US and allegiance to it's policies?

Which EU laws specifically worry you ?

MEPs more powerful than UK MPs? Why it seems like only yesterday that this country would have happily burned all of the UK MPS at the stake. And most EU countries seem to manage just fine within the EU

Speaking of other EU countries - Ireland wasn't bullied into ratifying the treaty. Broken down, Ireland basically used the first referendum to kick the incumbent government on domestic policies. The EU laughed and said "ah now lads that was funny but do you want to do this properly?" and they did

If you think the US states are homogenous I would only be able to think you don't know it very well - just the North/South divide ALONE is still raw, but individual states take their characteristics very very seriously indeed. And if Europe was basically 19th century feudal, the impact of closer ties since the 2 resultant world wards would suggest that, when acting like grown ups and co-operating, much can be done to remedy that

[SeanMacGabhann]

Is sovereignty that important to you - and why? Do you not think sovereignty was forfeited after the second world war and the subsequent debt to the US and allegiance to it's policies?

Which EU laws specifically worry you ?

MEPs more powerful than UK MPs? Why it seems like only yesterday that this country would have happily burned all of the UK MPS at the stake. And most EU countries seem to manage just fine within the EU

Speaking of other EU countries - Ireland wasn't bullied into ratifying the treaty. Broken down, Ireland basically used the first referendum to kick the incumbent government on domestic policies. The EU laughed and said "ah now lads that was funny but do you want to do this properly?" and they did

If you think the US states are homogenous I would only be able to think you don't know it very well - just the North/South divide ALONE is still raw, but individual states take their characteristics very very seriously indeed. And if Europe was basically 19th century feudal, the impact of closer ties since the 2 resultant world wards would suggest that, when acting like grown ups and co-operating, much can be done to remedy that

[????]

A summary of my concerns too and I'd also add

Further alienation between people and politics and thus a real potential for the rise of extremism

[????]

A summary of my concerns too and I'd also add

Further alienation between people and politics and thus a real potential for the rise of extremism

[SeanMacGabhann]

But why are the people of THIS country alienated when the people of other EU countries aren't? I genuinely don't understand that bit and would love someone to explain it to me?

[SeanMacGabhann]

But why are the people of THIS country alienated when the people of other EU countries aren't? I genuinely don't understand that bit and would love someone to explain it to me?

[????]

It's perhaps insularity, immaturity or arrogance agreed but it's a fact and one that makes the whole thing look unworkable in the long term. I think you're also being a bit niave about the rest of europes view which is growing more sceptical. EU politiciamns on the other hand...

[????]

It's perhaps insularity, immaturity or arrogance agreed but it's a fact and one that makes the whole thing look unworkable in the long term. I think you're also being a bit niave about the rest of europes view which is growing more sceptical. EU politiciamns on the other hand...

[SeanMacGabhann]

To put it another way, given that other EU countries make this thing work, it makes the citizens of this country look, not disenfranchised, alienated or understandably open to extremism - it just makes them look belligerent and arrogant and a bit mad

What the UK actually does want isn't very clear to me

[SeanMacGabhann]

To put it another way, given that other EU countries make this thing work, it makes the citizens of this country look, not disenfranchised, alienated or understandably open to extremism - it just makes them look belligerent and arrogant and a bit mad

What the UK actually does want isn't very clear to me

[SeanMacGabhann]

Oops cross-post

Is the rest of the EU becoming more sceptical at a citizen level? Not in my experience. I'll go further and say that I know a few sceptics in EU countries who seem to be rather pleased they are in the tent now

as for you saying "perhaps insularity, immaturity or arrogance agreed but it's a fact and one that makes the whole thing look unworkable in the long term"..

I'm not saying those are your views but if they are the views of the UK population for those reasons why can't they be challenged? Those are not a great set of attributes.. most people dealing with an adult with those characteristics would be told by their peers to grow up...

[SeanMacGabhann]

Oops cross-post

Is the rest of the EU becoming more sceptical at a citizen level? Not in my experience. I'll go further and say that I know a few sceptics in EU countries who seem to be rather pleased they are in the tent now

as for you saying "perhaps insularity, immaturity or arrogance agreed but it's a fact and one that makes the whole thing look unworkable in the long term"..

I'm not saying those are your views but if they are the views of the UK population for those reasons why can't they be challenged? Those are not a great set of attributes.. most people dealing with an adult with those characteristics would be told by their peers to grow up...

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

Belligerent, arrogant and a bit mad is fine by me. It's that island mentality, donchaknow?

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

Belligerent, arrogant and a bit mad is fine by me. It's that island mentality, donchaknow?

[????]

I think it requires more thought than I've got now but glad you started this, I was thinking of something similarly. I think the fact that no-ones really pushed for it shows rthe depth of suspicion throughout politics in the UK (and I include Labour - GB has sceptic tendancies I believe) and shows what an uphill struggle it will be. God I'm sounding like a stuck record now but I think that the enthusiasm held for europe by a "small, mettropolitam based set of people including many in the media doesn#t" reflect the will overall including many in politics. I meanm that genuinely rtaher than as a value anti-Guradian type rant I just think it shows what a struggle it will be.