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St. Francesca Cabrini primary school may close permanently

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march46
Posts: 106
Joined: 18 Jun 2020, 14:54

Wasn?t aware that school was in Southwark, as the article suggests
northernmonkey
Posts: 611
Joined: 02 Apr 2007, 18:34

Confusing as isn?t the school in Lewisham?
ianr
Posts: 4226
Joined: 12 Jul 2008, 17:02

It was included in the Southwark internal audit of schools Apr-July 2021 that was the subject of this thread: forum/read.php?5,2231610,page=1. The background information given for the school ran: Currently has a ?26,883 deficit which
was carried forward into the 2021-22
financial year.
 Due to limited finances the school does
not have a Business Manager. Budget
processes are overseen operationally by
the Clerk to the Governors, who is
supported by a Finance Assistant.
 Will officially become a one form school
in September 2021.
jazzer
Posts: 608
Joined: 31 Oct 2020, 11:50

I'd have thought it was in Southwark as it is on that side of the road which is classed as Southwark, isn't it?
Sally Eva
Posts: 1267
Joined: 20 Nov 2009, 07:29

https://get-information-schools.service ... ils/100851

Southwark

Obviously a Catholic school (primary)

Large, very desirable building in dreadful spot.
northernmonkey
Posts: 611
Joined: 02 Apr 2007, 18:34

Oh fair enough - I thought it was above wood vale so lewisham, but clearly confusing boundaries around there.

I don?t think Southwark should be looking to keep it open though- it?s uneconomic to run a 1 form entry school and there are places elsewhere.
sweetgirl
Posts: 1223
Joined: 23 May 2008, 21:44

I?d like to see what James barber has to say on this matter, after all he was one of the persons involved in making Harris primary happen when it clearly wasn?t needed!

It?s unbelievable what councils like to waste money on!
jazzer
Posts: 608
Joined: 31 Oct 2020, 11:50

I doubt that is the cause for St. Francesca Cabrini considering closing. And James Barber is no longer a councillor.
Sally Eva
Posts: 1267
Joined: 20 Nov 2009, 07:29

sweetgirl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I?d like to see what James barber has to say on
> this matter, after all he was one of the persons
> involved in making Harris primary happen when it
> clearly wasn?t needed!
>
> It?s unbelievable what councils like to waste
> money on!

I'm not sure how much input the council has over the Harris academy in Peckham. It describes itself as "an education charity run by teachers" and has 31 schools in London and Essex https://www.harrisfederation.org.uk/80/ ... -executive
alice
Posts: 3350
Joined: 03 Jan 2008, 15:55

I wonder who owns the land? Council or church?
jazzer
Posts: 608
Joined: 31 Oct 2020, 11:50

Exactly what I was thinking, as it will be prime land for redevelopment, but such a shame for the school to go but I appreciate it's nit viable financially to continue.

A further thought, what was on the land before the school?
legalalien
Posts: 1628
Joined: 22 May 2009, 17:21

The various consultation documents are on the website

http://www.stfrancescacabrini.co.uk/covid-19.

There?s a statement that neither Southwark Council or the Southwark RC Archdiocese owns the land, there are trustees who presumably hold it in trust for the missionary order of nuns.
first mate
Posts: 3594
Joined: 19 Dec 2007, 12:19

Indeed, we were told it was vital there were more schools and much energy was put into getting a number built and opened and now we learn Southwark is looking at closing schools.

sweetgirl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I?d like to see what James barber has to say on
> this matter, after all he was one of the persons
> involved in making Harris primary happen when it
> clearly wasn?t needed!
>
> It?s unbelievable what councils like to waste
> money on!
first mate
Posts: 3594
Joined: 19 Dec 2007, 12:19

James Barber was instrumental in helping Harris acquire two sites (Harris boys opposite the Peckham Rye and Harris primary on site of old police station, Lordship Lane) and getting Charter the lion's share of the hospital site.
Sally Eva Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> sweetgirl Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I?d like to see what James barber has to say on
> > this matter, after all he was one of the
> persons
> > involved in making Harris primary happen when
> it
> > clearly wasn?t needed!
> >
> > It?s unbelievable what councils like to waste
> > money on!
>
> I'm not sure how much input the council has over
> the Harris academy in Peckham. It describes itself
> as "an education charity run by teachers" and has
> 31 schools in London and Essex
> https://www.harrisfederation.org.uk/80/welcome-fro
> m-the-chief-executive
Jenijenjen
Posts: 170
Joined: 26 Sep 2021, 13:16

jazzer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Exactly what I was thinking, as it will be prime
> land for redevelopment, but such a shame for the
> school to go but I appreciate it's nit viable
> financially to continue.
>
> A further thought, what was on the land before the
> school?

A large private house, Woodville Hall, was on the site at the end of the 19th century. In 1902, St Francesca Cabrini founded a mission school in Brockley but was given notice to quit by the landlord in 1910. On behalf of the Missionary Sisters of the Sacred Heart of Jesus, an order she founded, she purchased Woodville Hall and a property in Honor Oak Road at a good price and moved the convent and school to these buildings. The school accepted only girls and was fee paying, attracting the daughters of wealthy Italians and Irish in London as well as pupils from overseas.

Woodville Hall was extended and other surroundings buildings purchased. However, the original Woodville Hall remains and is Grade II listed.

St Francesca Cabrini died in 1917 and was beatified in 1938. She is the patron saint of immigrants.
Nigello
Posts: 3418
Joined: 27 Dec 2012, 15:48

Is it a state school?
Moovart
Posts: 130
Joined: 12 Oct 2014, 20:20

It is a non fee paying, voluntary aided school.

To my knowledge it was never the first choice of parents living in the immediate vicinity of the school unless they were Catholic. Its catchment area is therefore wide for people wanting a religion affiliated school.

There is an excellent non religious school within 100m which has a secular admissions policy based on siblings and home distance and so has a smaller catchment and is very popular with families in the catchment area.

The decline of Catholicism in general, preference of parents to have a good school near to home rather than a religion affiliated school for their children may be having an effect.
Nigello
Posts: 3418
Joined: 27 Dec 2012, 15:48

I am against religious schools though it?s never good when an established school has to go.
jazzer
Posts: 608
Joined: 31 Oct 2020, 11:50

Just to correct the false statement which has been made, it is NOT Southwark who are proposing the closure of the school, but the school itself. an important difference. Southwark will have to deal with the resulting "fall out", i.e. help find school places.

first mate Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Indeed, we were told it was vital there were more
> schools and much energy was put into getting a
> number built and opened and now we learn Southwark
> is looking at closing schools.
>
> sweetgirl Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I?d like to see what James barber has to say on
> > this matter, after all he was one of the
> persons
> > involved in making Harris primary happen when
> it
> > clearly wasn?t needed!
> >
> > It?s unbelievable what councils like to waste
> > money on!
jazzer
Posts: 608
Joined: 31 Oct 2020, 11:50

And your point is?????????????????

If it's a dig at James, he's no longer a councillor, so a wasted dig.

first mate Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> James Barber was instrumental in helping Harris
> acquire two sites (Harris boys opposite the
> Peckham Rye and Harris primary on site of old
> police station, Lordship Lane) and getting Charter
> the lion's share of the hospital site.
> Sally Eva Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > sweetgirl Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > I?d like to see what James barber has to say
> on
> > > this matter, after all he was one of the
> > persons
> > > involved in making Harris primary happen when
> > it
> > > clearly wasn?t needed!
> > >
> > > It?s unbelievable what councils like to waste
> > > money on!
> >
> > I'm not sure how much input the council has
> over
> > the Harris academy in Peckham. It describes
> itself
> > as "an education charity run by teachers" and
> has
> > 31 schools in London and Essex
> >
> https://www.harrisfederation.org.uk/80/welcome-fro
>
> > m-the-chief-executive
jazzer
Posts: 608
Joined: 31 Oct 2020, 11:50

Thanks, that's very insightful to learn about its past.

Whatever the outcome of the consultation and in case he school does close, it would be lovely to keep at least the frontage of the main building.

The site is huge, if closure is agreed it could easily be developed into multiple flats, more so with the land at the rear on Honor Oak Park.

Jenijenjen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> jazzer Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Exactly what I was thinking, as it will be
> prime
> > land for redevelopment, but such a shame for
> the
> > school to go but I appreciate it's nit viable
> > financially to continue.
> >
> > A further thought, what was on the land before
> the
> > school?
>
> A large private house, Woodville Hall, was on the
> site at the end of the 19th century. In 1902, St
> Francesca Cabrini founded a mission school in
> Brockley but was given notice to quit by the
> landlord in 1910. On behalf of the Missionary
> Sisters of the Sacred Heart of Jesus, an order she
> founded, she purchased Woodville Hall and a
> property in Honor Oak Road at a good price and
> moved the convent and school to these buildings.
> The school accepted only girls and was fee paying,
> attracting the daughters of wealthy Italians and
> Irish in London as well as pupils from overseas.
>
> Woodville Hall was extended and other surroundings
> buildings purchased. However, the original
> Woodville Hall remains and is Grade II listed.
>
> St Francesca Cabrini died in 1917 and was
> beatified in 1938. She is the patron saint of
> immigrants.
jazzer
Posts: 608
Joined: 31 Oct 2020, 11:50

You may yourself be against religious schools, but they allow parents to have their children brought up and taught with faith, nothing wrong with that and it instils value's and morals which are sadly lacking from today's society. It may not be everyone's choice, but choice there is and it does no harm whatever your believe is or is not.

Nigello Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am against religious schools though it?s never
> good when an established school has to go.
ianr
Posts: 4226
Joined: 12 Jul 2008, 17:02

THE IDEAL CONVENT SCHOOL, Woodville, OAKLANDS, WOODVILLE MALL, HONOR OAK, LONDON, S.E.23.
----
CONDUCTED BY THE MISSIONARY SISTERS OF THE SACRED HEART OF JESUS.
----
The site of the SACRED HEART SCHOOL is in one of the healthiest suburbs of London. Elevated position. 300ft. above sea level. Extensive grounds. Situation unsurpassed for beauty of rural environment and health advantages.
Hockey, net ball, cricket, tennis according to season, The Nuns aim at giving best possible moral, mental and physical training to their pupils. Pupils prepared for the University Locals, London Matriculation and Musics R.A.M. and L.C.M., and drawing public examinations at the R.D.S.
Applications to the Rev. Mother Superior will receive immediate attention.
--- Nottingham and Midland Catholic News - Saturday 11 October 1924, p.9

MISSIONARY NUN VISITS LONDON.
----
Reception At Convent.
----
PROPOSED SCHOOL FOR HONOR PARK.
----
To celebrate the arrival in London of the Very Rev. Mother General of the Congregation of the Missionary Sisters of the Sacred Heart of Jesus, a concert was given in her honour by the pupils of the Sacred Heart Convent, Honor Oak, on Saturday. It was stated that the intention of the Rev. Mother General is to build a school in Honor Oak which will be second to none in the South of England......
--- Nottingham and Midland Catholic News - Saturday 25 June 1932, p.1

(Both, courtesy of https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk )
Nigello
Posts: 3418
Joined: 27 Dec 2012, 15:48

If your faith is important, DIY! Ample time for instruction at home. Most folk are godless but dissemble to get better education - hardly the stuff of religious values.
alice
Posts: 3350
Joined: 03 Jan 2008, 15:55

Faith schools? Look at NI.
Wouldn?t it be great if the nuns decided to give the land to Southwark council for the building of the many many many homes that are needed.
jazzer
Posts: 608
Joined: 31 Oct 2020, 11:50

If you have no faith you are a lost soul.

Nigello Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If your faith is important, DIY! Ample time for
> instruction at home. Most folk are godless but
> dissemble to get better education - hardly the
> stuff of religious values.
first mate
Posts: 3594
Joined: 19 Dec 2007, 12:19

Jazzer, 'my point' was in response to another poster who stated Southwark did not have much sway over Harris schools- while this is true, at the time, when JB was our councillor, he (and by extension Southwark) was closely involved in getting a number of school sites acquired because there was a stated massive requirement for as many schools as possible in the borough. Clearly, if schools cannot fill their classes they will cease to be viable. The point stands that, it seems, Southwark have not done a great job of understanding intake requirements for the borough.

jazzer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And your point is?????????????????
>
> If it's a dig at James, he's no longer a
> councillor, so a wasted dig.
>
> first mate Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > James Barber was instrumental in helping Harris
> > acquire two sites (Harris boys opposite the
> > Peckham Rye and Harris primary on site of old
> > police station, Lordship Lane) and getting
> Charter
> > the lion's share of the hospital site.
> > Sally Eva Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > sweetgirl Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > I?d like to see what James barber has to
> say
> > on
> > > > this matter, after all he was one of the
> > > persons
> > > > involved in making Harris primary happen
> when
> > > it
> > > > clearly wasn?t needed!
> > > >
> > > > It?s unbelievable what councils like to
> waste
> > > > money on!
> > >
> > > I'm not sure how much input the council has
> > over
> > > the Harris academy in Peckham. It describes
> > itself
> > > as "an education charity run by teachers" and
> > has
> > > 31 schools in London and Essex
> > >
> >
> https://www.harrisfederation.org.uk/80/welcome-fro
>
> >
> > > m-the-chief-executive
legalalien
Posts: 1628
Joined: 22 May 2009, 17:21

Will be quite an interesting process actually. Is currently a registered charity and looks like its charitable objects relate to activities carried out by the nuns in the U.K.

https://register-of-charities.charityco ... -how-where

They?ll want to use / dispose of the assets in an appropriate way before the charity is wound up (assuming they are winding up).

Hard to know exactly what they could use the trust assets for without seeing the underlying trust deed/ scheme.



alice Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Faith schools? Look at NI.
> Wouldn?t it be great if the nuns decided to give
> the land to Southwark council for the building of
> the many many many homes that are needed.
jazzer
Posts: 608
Joined: 31 Oct 2020, 11:50

Maybe the plan is to take the assets value with them when they go.

My other thought is what will happen to the Nun's who have given their lives to the convent and school. Will they have to return overseas or can they have a well earned and deserved retirement?
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