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The Bishop, The EDT, The Great Exhibition, the Actress or another?
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messageRe: Its a minefield...
Posted by TheCat June 23, 06:16PM

DulwichBorn&Bred Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Because he has white privilege which he is
> insulted about because he doesnít like the term or
> any terms Black people come up with and when asked
> by me to come up with another term, he couldnít.
> Total white privilege abuse.
>


If this is the type of dismissive response you have to people who 99% agree with you....I genuinely worry about how you stand a chance of interacting with people that dont.....

messageRe: Its a minefield...
Posted by Blah Blah June 23, 06:20PM

I would argue that the slogan does its job perfectly well in the context of deaths in Police custody and the failure to hold anyone accountable afterwards. It could even be argued that it has resonance during a pandemic that disproportionately kills BAME people, many of them who were taking care of others in hospitals. No person should be taking offense at that slogan.

White privilege is a bit more complex granted, because it involves dynamics around class structures that can impact white people too, and we have discussed that here in part.

messageRe: Its a minefield...
Posted by DulwichBorn&Bred June 24, 08:55AM

The only time BLM needs explaining is to those of them like you refusing to accept their privilege. Everyone else I know fully understands BLM including my young child. I have only ever seen people who are in denial arguing against BLM. So itís not the slogan that is the issue, itís the people in denial.


TheCat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Blah Blah Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > No Cat, all you have done is post links to
> people
> > who display the undertones of feeling some
> threat
> > to their white identity because black people
> are
> > fighting for equality again.
>
> Again, I think you're being very disingenuous Blah
> Blah...'All I have done is post links'....thats a
> patent untruth. I have posted a few links amongst
> a myriad of detailed comments...the lions share of
> which are my own thoughts and make no reference to
> said links....
>
> Anyway, even if you don't like those links...you
> once again you ignore the link to the Guardian
> article...written by a prominent black
> journalist....basically saying the same thing I am
> (ytes, from a different perspective, but the
> conclusion is broadly the same). Shall we dismiss
> his views as well?
>
> Also...posting links to stats verifying what we
> already agree-on seems a bit odd? You seem to
> really be struggling with the concept that I agree
> on the unequal playing field and the
> injustice...but think the slogans (not
> specifically BLM...but also things like
> #mutedbutlistening, white silence is violence,
> Understand you'll never understand) are not
> productive in moving the debate forward. You
> constantly are trying to convince me of what we
> already agree on!!
>
> Finally...What DR said...I dont condone the
> vindictive use of ALM/WLM in anyway....but if the
> BLM slogan needs to be constantly explained, then
> its not doing its job.

messageRe: Its a minefield...
Posted by Sephiroth June 24, 09:06AM

my favourite bit about this thread is that someone who started it because although they agree with bulk of the message feel the manner in which it's conveyed puts some people off, has spent 8 pages yelling at people that they aren't getting HIS message

messageRe: Its a minefield...
Posted by KidKruger June 24, 09:34AM

I actually saw a FB post the other day where someone had forwarded a post from Leave.EU, which asked the questions "why aren't people all out protesting about the stabbings in Reading ?". A direct reference to BLM being (I presume) unpatriotic / non 'keeping our own shop in order'.
Gobsmacked !

messageRe: Its a minefield...
Posted by pk June 24, 09:58AM

KidKruger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I actually saw a FB post the other day where
> someone had forwarded a post from Leave.EU, which
> asked the questions "why aren't people all out
> protesting about the stabbings in Reading ?". A
> direct reference to BLM being (I presume)
> unpatriotic / non 'keeping our own shop in
> order'.
> Gobsmacked !

but you still think that thecat's doing a good job here yes?

messageRe: Its a minefield...
Posted by uncleglen June 24, 10:00AM

KidKruger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I actually saw a FB post the other day where
> someone had forwarded a post from Leave.EU, which
> asked the questions "why aren't people all out
> protesting about the stabbings in Reading ?". A
> direct reference to BLM being (I presume)
> unpatriotic / non 'keeping our own shop in
> order'.
> Gobsmacked !

Not surprised- we have suffered terrorist attack after terrorist attack and the one before this last year at London Bridge (Usman Khan Fishmongers' Hall) was also someone let out to attend some ridiculous libtard effort to rehabilitate a fanatic. And this Reading Killer was known to MI5 as someone who might 'travel abroad for extremist reasons'.
The 'why aren't people all out protesting about the Reading stabbings' is probably a rhetorical question because all protesting in the street and causing mayhem does is distracts the cops from doing their REAL job and wastes the tax payers' money. And most people with intelligence realise this.
And as for keeping your own house in order- yes....please do

messageRe: Its a minefield...
Posted by JohnL June 24, 11:01AM

KidKruger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I actually saw a FB post the other day where
> someone had forwarded a post from Leave.EU, which
> asked the questions "why aren't people all out
> protesting about the stabbings in Reading ?". A
> direct reference to BLM being (I presume)
> unpatriotic / non 'keeping our own shop in
> order'.
> Gobsmacked !

some of the intolerant on twitter have noticed the victims were gay - and some little barbed comments and attempts to split happening sad smiley



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was june 24, 11:11am by JohnL.

messageRe: Its a minefield...
Posted by TheCat June 24, 04:19PM

DulwichBorn&Bred Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The only time BLM needs explaining is to those of
> them like you refusing to accept their privilege.
> Everyone else I know fully understands BLM
> including my young child. I have only ever seen
> people who are in denial arguing against BLM. So
> itís not the slogan that is the issue, itís the
> people in denial.

If only the world was populated with only people you know, then I'm sure we would live in a better place. Unfort it's not.

Sephiroth's comment above is actually annoyingly amusing...So fair play to him/her...but unfort the reason why I have had to spend 8 pages trying to make one simple point, is that people like you seemingly refuse to actually acknowledge what I've said...and keep coming back to claiming I have lack of understanding of why Black Lives Matter, and claiming my 'unacceptable opinions' are a result of refusing acknowledge my privilege. So I've spent a few posts attempting to argue my point and re-frame my position (or 'change my slogan' metaphorically speaking!), but it seems to little effect.

I personally have no problem with the black lives matter slogan..go and check my posts..I've never said I do..but that's how it's been painted by others (I do have a problem with some of the other language, which Ive referenced in my OP). But it's clear from a whole range of sources that many people do have a problem with it..and it's worthwhile exploring how can we try and address that.

I acknowledge and understand the argument that people like yourselves and Blah Blah are making....that this is the language that's been chosen by those most affected, and why should they change it? Perfectly acceptable point of view.

But many on here, like yourself, simply refuse to even try to understand what I'm saying around that. And just throw the same tired old tropes back at me, without addressing the specific things I've often said. Hence the 8 pagessmiling smiley

For the final time...I acknowledge the concept of white privilege, I acknowledge that there is a societal problem with racial injustice....I simply think the best way to gain broader support is to change the language around the issue (while still maintaining the integrity of the central tenets of the Blm argument)...I'm not trying to 'silence' anyone. Sure, you may question why the 'oppressed' should have to change their message to appeal to the oppressors...but as I said right at the start...the solution to this societal problem involves everyone, oppressed and oppressors....So you can sit there and throw shade at the people 'in denial' all you like...but it's unlikely to progress you towards your goal in my view.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit was june 25, 05:43am by TheCat.

messageRe: Its a minefield...
Posted by TheCat June 24, 04:22PM

pk Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> KidKruger Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I actually saw a FB post the other day where
> > someone had forwarded a post from Leave.EU,
> which
> > asked the questions "why aren't people all out
> > protesting about the stabbings in Reading ?". A
> > direct reference to BLM being (I presume)
> > unpatriotic / non 'keeping our own shop in
> > order'.
> > Gobsmacked !
>
> but you still think that thecat's doing a good job
> here yes?

Blimey..even when I'm not even commenting on the thread, you are trying to find ways to slag me off?!? It's getting a bit desperate and pathetic. Let it go pk....let it go...

messageRe: Its a minefield...
Posted by pk June 24, 07:52PM

TheCat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> pk Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > KidKruger Wrote:
> >
> ---------------------------------------------
> > but you still think that thecat's doing a good
> job
> > here yes?
>
> Blimey..even when I'm not even commenting on the
> thread, you are trying to find ways to slag me
> off?!? It's getting a bit desperate and pathetic.
> Let it go pk....let it go...

Apologies i thought that when you commented on this thread (just up the page) you were commenting on this thread

Like when you commented on this thread to support the cat bringing up this inevitably provocative thread

I actually wondered whether you might have changed your view

messageRe: Its a minefield...
Posted by KidKruger June 25, 12:27AM

pk, they are separate things, on e is not dependent on the other.
the FB post has ill-intent, whereas I believe TheCat does not have ill-intent.
unrelated. different. get it ?

pk Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> KidKruger Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I actually saw a FB post the other day where
> > someone had forwarded a post from Leave.EU,
> which
> > asked the questions "why aren't people all out
> > protesting about the stabbings in Reading ?". A
> > direct reference to BLM being (I presume)
> > unpatriotic / non 'keeping our own shop in
> > order'.
> > Gobsmacked !
>
> but you still think that thecat's doing a good job
> here yes?

messageRe: Its a minefield...
Posted by DulwichBorn&Bred June 26, 04:39PM

A really good watch and educational: The school that tried to end racism. [www.channel4.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was june 26, 05:35pm by DulwichBorn&Bred.

messageRe: Its a minefield...
Posted by uncleglen June 27, 12:32AM

Oh well. That's nearly the whole of Pride month hijacked then! Just saying- a small march will happen today

messageRe: Its a minefield...
Posted by Blah Blah June 27, 06:28AM

DulwichBorn&Bred Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A really good watch and educational: The school
> that tried to end racism.
> [www.channel4.com]
> t-tried-to-end-racism

I thought this programme was thought provoking (in a good way). What I found most interesting is how the already established differing levels of confidence affected the thought process of the kids. But I also came away with hope. Children are far smarter than we sometimes give them credit for, and at that age, they have a simple approach to life that says everything must make logical sense. That is a key impetus of learning at that age anyway. I really liked the way the programme sought to empower everyone around their culture and identity. The key to ending racism is exactly that - finding value in our own culture and identity, as much as others. Tackling inequality in turn, is then something everyone can work together on.

messageRe: Its a minefield...
Posted by DulwichBorn&Bred June 27, 09:47AM

I agree and itís so important that every school adopts something like that, as the headmaster stated ĎWe wonít ever have a fully inclusive society if we donít tackle racism/unconscious bias in schoolí or something along those lines. Itís why Iím passionate about things like the [www.theblackcurriculum.com] or the course implemented at that school to be made compulsory in the UK. Our children are the only ones that will be able to stop unconscious bias in the future. The Government however has rejected The Black CurriculumĎs petition by stating that each school is in charge of their own curriculum so they donít feel they need to discuss changes. It seems like unless the school has a great Head like the one in that programme or parents put pressure on their schools to adjust their curriculum to tackle racism/history, things will never change.

Blah Blah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> DulwichBorn&Bred Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > A really good watch and educational: The school
> > that tried to end racism.
> >
> [www.channel4.com]
>
> > t-tried-to-end-racism
>
> I thought this programme was thought provoking (in
> a good way). What I found most interesting is how
> the already established differing levels of
> confidence affected the thought process of the
> kids. But I also came away with hope. Children are
> far smarter than we sometimes give them credit
> for, and at that age, they have a simple approach
> to life that says everything must make logical
> sense. That is a key impetus of learning at that
> age anyway. I really liked the way the programme
> sought to empower everyone around their culture
> and identity. The key to ending racism is exactly
> that - finding value in our own culture and
> identity, as much as others. Tackling inequality
> in turn, is then something everyone can work
> together on.

messageRe: Its a minefield...
Posted by Spartacus June 27, 12:34PM

Tongue in cheek but if impersonating someone you aren't is wrong (black / brown face , Apu in the Simpson's being voices by a white person) should we then take this view further and stop drag acts as it degrades women who have spent years struggling against male oppression to get equal rights ?

Should Dame Edna be finally put out of her misery ?

Should Drag shows be defrocked ?

And finally can we all agree that Mrs Browns Boys just isn't funny ?

Whilst it is tongue in cheek and there is a serious issue with using humorous costumes / face paint to put someone down , the real question is where should it stop ?

messageRe: Its a minefield...
Posted by JohnL June 27, 03:56PM

Lovely BLM advert on Sky News/Sky Sport at the moment

[www.youtube.com]

messageRe: Its a minefield...
Posted by DulwichBorn&Bred June 27, 07:11PM

That is lovely! ❤️


JohnL Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lovely BLM advert on Sky News/Sky Sport at the
> moment
>
> [www.youtube.com]
> e=youtu.be

messageRe: Its a minefield...
Posted by Blah Blah June 27, 08:56PM

Yes I can agree Mrs Brown's Boys isn't that funny Spartacus ;) It feels very dated to me but my cousin loves it, so there is an audience for it.

This is where it is impossible to avoid the complexity of all of this. Drag and especially pantomime drag, feeds into the gender constructs that for example, render older women as unattractive and/or invisible (irregardless of whether they actually are or not). But it is complex because in many family units, the eldest female is the matriarch, who often rules the roost. So we often also see the matriarch as a character in drag. This is where Mrs Brown's Boys sits.

And what part does the history of theater play too? Men historically have played female roles, and not always as a form of satire either. Similarly, the theaters of Victorian England had many an impersonator. Women who assumed the character of wandering dandies, or city gents, whilst singing a song or two. There is also the further layer of sexual orientation. In a culture where homosexuality was illegal, theater was often the safest environment for those who did not fit into any heteronormative norm. The same was true for all kinds of people outcast for all kinds of reasons. There is no one answer to your question on degradation Spartacus, for all of those reasons.

Feminists would argue that men ridicule women they do not find attractive, and there is some truth to that. Neuroscience now has research that suggests we are hardwired as a species to have aversion to faces we do not find asymmetrical for example, even when we are not trying to display any aversion. And it had been understood for a long time that our DNA is wired to seek out seemingly physically healthy partners. How does that play on a gender basis? There are nuanced differences there, but all genders have aversion indicators. So there are some biological things underlying some unconscious bias. Because it is unconscious, can we ever be entirely free of it?

In my opinion, there are things that can definitely be tackled, like inequality of opportunity. We can ask the questions around upward social mobility, but the answers will often draw on a wide range of inequalities that go beyond ethnicity, gender etc. Answering the question of how to stop unconscious bias however, is impossible to answer. And I would also say that culture aversion is just as strong a factor in unconscious bias. We never really talk about culture in debates around racism, but we should.

messageRe: Its a minefield...
Posted by diable rouge June 28, 01:04PM

https://cdn.24.co.za/files/Cms/General/d/7281/e070b65a747845a9bf9272840538f90a.jpg

messageRe: Its a minefield...
Posted by TheCat June 28, 01:52PM

JohnL Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lovely BLM advert on Sky News/Sky Sport at the
> moment
>
> [www.youtube.com]
> e=youtu.be

Rupert Murdoch is a softy at heartsmiling smiley.....

messageRe: Its a minefield...
Posted by TheCat June 29, 03:54PM

Pie Nails it again....

[www.youtube.com]

messageRe: Its a minefield...
Posted by ianr June 29, 04:40PM

Blah Blah wrote on 27 June:

> Neuroscience now has research that
> suggests we are hardwired as a species
> to have aversion to faces we do not
> find asymmetrical for example, even
> when we are not trying to display
> any aversion.

Do you have any useful references?

messageRe: Its a minefield...
Posted by seenbeen June 30, 10:02AM

TheCat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Pie Nails it again....
>
> [www.youtube.com]

Excellent- and he did it in 5 minutes and 13 seconds.
Perhaps he'll write a book Celsius 1200!

messageRe: Its a minefield...
Posted by JohnL June 30, 02:56PM

ianr Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Blah Blah wrote on 27 June:
>
> > Neuroscience now has research that
> > suggests we are hardwired as a species
> > to have aversion to faces we do not
> > find asymmetrical for example, even
> > when we are not trying to display
> > any aversion.
>
> Do you have any useful references?


You don't need proof when you've got Jin of BTS

[thehimalayantimes.com]

messageRe: Its a minefield...
Posted by Alec1 June 30, 03:03PM

TheCat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So....as a white person I'm apparently racist if I
> dont 'understand that i'll never
> understand'....and even if I try to understand,
> its also racist to ask a person of colour (the
> people who do understand) to explain it to me....
>
> Also...Its 'racial profiling' if I assume that any
> person of colour understands and can explain it to
> me, but not racial profiling to assume that i (as
> not a person of colour) will never understand.
>
> Also, good intentions arent enough, but try
> getting involved and you're probably a
> self-appointed White ally or have a white savior
> complex.
>
> (See attached for more)
>
>
> For clarity....the police/race issue in the US is
> clearly a serious problem; as is racism in any
> form, and we clearly all need to find ways to
> combat racial prejudice as a society.....but so
> many serious discussions on this issue are being
> hampered when the woke-police continue to add
> layer upon layer of verboten
> language/questions/behaviour.
>
> I beleive its got to the point that we (more often
> than not) cant even have a discussion about it?
> I've seen people taken down on television/social
> media for not blindly buying into every new
> catchphrase associated with this issue. (im sure
> someone will brand me racist for this thread)
>
> But....dont we tell children to ask as many
> questions as possible? dont we use phrases like
> "asking questions is how you learn' and 'there are
> no stupid questions'?
>
> I dont think im alone in wanting an open
> discussion on some of the more contentious views
> around this issue, but also not alone in that I
> dont want to be branded a racist for doing so. So
> - I'll just stay silent like a good many other
> people. And probabbly unfort be branded a rascist
> for doing that too.....


It's up to all of us to educate ourselves and our children, not expect black people to educate us. Let's be honest, the BAME community have been TRYING to educate us, get us to not just listen, but to really hear them, for how many decades? Even now, in 2020 we are still not hearing them.

Whether it's about the colour of someone's skin, race, religion, sexuality, gender, disability it's up to us, the people who want/need to learn to take on the responsibility for OUR education. It is NOT up to an oppressed, marginalised group to educate us.

messageRe: Its a minefield...
Posted by DulwichBorn&Bred June 30, 05:31PM

Thank you, you get it. Itís exhausting.

Alec1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TheCat Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > So....as a white person I'm apparently racist if
> I
> > dont 'understand that i'll never
> > understand'....and even if I try to understand,
> > its also racist to ask a person of colour (the
> > people who do understand) to explain it to
> me....
> >
> > Also...Its 'racial profiling' if I assume that
> any
> > person of colour understands and can explain it
> to
> > me, but not racial profiling to assume that i
> (as
> > not a person of colour) will never understand.
> >
> > Also, good intentions arent enough, but try
> > getting involved and you're probably a
> > self-appointed White ally or have a white
> savior
> > complex.
> >
> > (See attached for more)
> >
> >
> > For clarity....the police/race issue in the US
> is
> > clearly a serious problem; as is racism in any
> > form, and we clearly all need to find ways to
> > combat racial prejudice as a society.....but so
> > many serious discussions on this issue are
> being
> > hampered when the woke-police continue to add
> > layer upon layer of verboten
> > language/questions/behaviour.
> >
> > I beleive its got to the point that we (more
> often
> > than not) cant even have a discussion about it?
> > I've seen people taken down on
> television/social
> > media for not blindly buying into every new
> > catchphrase associated with this issue. (im
> sure
> > someone will brand me racist for this thread)
> >
> > But....dont we tell children to ask as many
> > questions as possible? dont we use phrases like
> > "asking questions is how you learn' and 'there
> are
> > no stupid questions'?
> >
> > I dont think im alone in wanting an open
> > discussion on some of the more contentious
> views
> > around this issue, but also not alone in that I
> > dont want to be branded a racist for doing so.
> So
> > - I'll just stay silent like a good many other
> > people. And probabbly unfort be branded a
> rascist
> > for doing that too.....
>
>
> It's up to all of us to educate ourselves and our
> children, not expect black people to educate us.
> Let's be honest, the BAME community have been
> TRYING to educate us, get us to not just listen,
> but to really hear them, for how many decades?
> Even now, in 2020 we are still not hearing them.
>
> Whether it's about the colour of someone's skin,
> race, religion, sexuality, gender, disability it's
> up to us, the people who want/need to learn to
> take on the responsibility for OUR education. It
> is NOT up to an oppressed, marginalised group to
> educate us.

messageRe: Its a minefield...
Posted by JohnL June 30, 05:45PM

I worry a little about Sir Kier sitting on the fence.

(he was distinguishing BLM (the movement) from BLM (the organisation) - is that what you have to do to get near power in the UK you see sad smiley. )

However, the fact only right wing newspapers are reporting this when I search means it could well be newspaper froth.

[www.thelondoneconomic.com]

messageRe: Its a minefield...
Posted by TheCat June 30, 06:26PM

JohnL Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I worry a little about Sir Kier sitting on the
> fence.
>
> (he was distinguishing BLM (the movement) from BLM
> (the organisation) - is that what you have to do
> to get near power in the UK you see sad smiley. )
>
> However, the fact only right wing newspapers are
> reporting this when I search means it could well
> be newspaper froth.
>
> [www.thelondoneconomic.com]
> -caught-in-black-lives-matter-storm/30/06/

I'd be fascinated to hear what people who (self-proclaimed) 'get it'...like DulwichBornandBred think about the slogan 'Defund the Police'???...now that various people (lead by Sir Kier) are backing away from BLM (the organisation) as a result of their use of that slogan...

To use logic cited earlier in this thread in response to some of my comments....if this is the language that has been chosen, then I guess you feel it's unreasonable that BLM had to tweet to explain what they 'actually' mean by that phrase.....and it's just those that need 'education' who are 'in denial' of what 'defund the police' 'really' means?

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