We are trialing a dedicated East Dulwich COVID-19 Area on the forum here - please keep it useful.

Forum Sponsors

All Round Renovation

www.circlepsychologypartners.co.uk

www.hensonsecurity.com

Advertise here

The East Dulwich Forum
Would you recommend your East Dulwich doctor, dentist or butcher?
Goto Page: Previous1234567Next
Current Page: 4 of 7
messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by JohnL September 09, 11:46AM

redpost Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Scenario one:
>
> drive to sainsburys, do the shop
> back in car, stop off at the layby outside marks
> and sparks to pick up some percy pigs (even though
> parking not allowed here)
> drive round the corner and park in melborne grove
> for bi-weekly colonic irrigation appt
> get back in car and swear at a cyclist on way
> home
>
> Scenario two:
>
> drive to sainsburys do the shop
> walk to marks
> walk to business on melborne grove
> perhaps stop for a coffee if you have time
> walk back to car (you've got 3h free parking)
>
>
> It's not difficult is it??

2 Hours unfortunately - I suspect I may have been slightly over it last weekend sad smiley.
I've kept my 140 sainsburys bill just in case as they usually let you off if you have one.

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by Dogkennelhillbilly September 09, 04:03PM

"remember, you can expect about 11% reduction in car use)"

An 11% reduction in car usage in one fell swoop would be a huge achievement. It just goes to show how many of those journeys weren't critical. Remember also that the reductions are cumulative - so the next traffic scheme in the next neighbourhood will reduce car journeys by another 11%.

OneDulwich professes to be really, really concerned about congestion and pollution, but they want an overnight solution that solves all problems and without inconvenience. It ain't gonna happen.

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by Rockets September 09, 05:02PM

But where does the other 89% of traffic go that can no longer use the roads that are now closed? By that reckoning about 6,000 cars that used to use the DV junction will now be looking for another route. Therein lies the point....

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by Spartacus September 09, 05:53PM

It strikes me that the more voices and support that the petition [www.change.org] gets, the more vocal the anti car brigade are on here

Is it that they are seeing the tide turning in the opposite direction and that they are no longer the group shouting the loudest ?

Looks like, at present, the petition has nearly a thousand signatures which is about 8% of the total population of East Dulwich (based on 2011 census details) and considering it's focusing only on one small area that's pretty convincing support against the road closures in my opinion

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by Pugwash September 09, 06:32PM

I do not often go to Melbourne Grove and would not go in a car as always very hard to find parking spaces. Just as easy to get a bus and get off at Elsie Road or station depending which side of Melbourne Grove you wished to shop in.

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by FairTgirl September 09, 06:43PM

I'd say so! It is getting lots of support.

Signing the petition is NOT saying 'I want rat runs between East Dulwich and Dulwich Village '
It is NOT saying 'I want more cars, or I want more air pollution'

It IS saying, 'I want a proper debate on how this is done'
It IS saying 'I want joined up thinking and solutions that work for most'
It IS saying, 'I want clearer air for all, not just a few'

Sign here:
www.chng.it/k62TTfZD2G



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was september 09, 06:44pm by FairTgirl.

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by Otto2 September 09, 09:30PM

This.

exdulwicher Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You get a better response to change when you have
> buy-in from those affected. Prove your case,
> explain what you're doing and facilitate recourse.
> Don't hide.
>
> Yes and no. People fear change and on anything
> contentious like traffic management, the general
> response is one of resistance and resentment.
> Consultation happens, vocal resistance is met,
> proposal gets watered down, re-submitted, vocal
> resistance is met and so on. Eventually, what
> happens is so light-touch that it only succeeds in
> annoying people and not delivering any of the
> originally promised benefits.
>
> A far better (and cheaper) way of doing things is
> to just tell people what you're doing and why,
> implement the changes, consult as you go and you
> get to actually SEE the changes from the start
> (disruption, traffic jams) right through to the
> final result (acceptance, lowered traffic etc)
> without relying on traffic models. The advantages
> are that it's temporary and cheap. If it doesn't
> work, you don't need to call in construction crews
> and dig the entire road up again, you just move a
> few planters. If it sort of works in some areas
> but not others, you can tweak it reasonably
> easily.
>
> You'll still get resistance - you always will no
> matter how many consultations you carry out - but
> this is quicker and cheaper. Eventually, by a mix
> of ongoing consultation, traffic / pollution
> monitoring, traffic modelling and actual physical
> data of what is happening right there on the roads
> gives you a far better picture of what works and
> why than just trying to rebuild one junction or
> block off one road. Honestly, this should be the
> standard method of doing this, not the constant
> back-and-forth of proposal -> consultation ->
> counter proposal -> further consultation...
>
> Long term, it's far less disruptive and far
> cheaper and gives better modelling info.

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by stecoward101 September 09, 10:56PM

@Spartacus 'Looks like, at present, the petition has nearly a thousand signatures which is about 8% of the total population of East Dulwich (based on 2011 census details) and considering it's focusing only on one small area that's pretty convincing support against the road closures in my opinion'.

I am not sure how you equate 8% as pretty convincing support. I would consider 92% not signing it as more convincing.

What percentage would sign a petition to keep Melbourne Grove closed? and when I say closed, it bleeding well isn't. it has a barrier at one end so cars can still access it from the other side if they want/need to access the shops. I honestly cant understand why people don't get this. Well they probably do but that does not help their selfish argument.

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by Dogkennelhillbilly September 09, 11:08PM

I was on EDG at about 5pm today, there wasn't any congestion at all. Is this kind of anecdata useful?

"the petition has nearly a thousand signatures which is about 8% of the total population of East Dulwich"

Yeah, but change.org petitions of any persuasion are a load of old tut. Those signatories aren't all East Dulwich residents (or even necessarily all real).

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by Rockets September 10, 07:47AM

Dogkennelhillbilly Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I was on EDG at about 5pm today, there wasn't any
> congestion at all. Is this kind of anecdata
> useful?
>
> "the petition has nearly a thousand signatures
> which is about 8% of the total population of East
> Dulwich"
>
> Yeah, but change.org petitions of any persuasion
> are a load of old tut. Those signatories aren't
> all East Dulwich residents (or even necessarily
> all real).


Let's be honest, Change.org petitions are a lot more transparent than the consultation surveys the council conducts! winking smiley

The thing that the pro-closure lobby doesn't seem to like right now is that there is a lot of dissent against the closures amongst a large swathe of the community and they seek to de-position and belittle to try and maintain the impression that everything is great and it is a minority of petrol-heads making a lot of noise. For the pro group they aren't that happy that the playing field is being levelled after having the council echo-chamber to themselves for so long.

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by thebestnameshavegone September 10, 08:04AM

Rockets Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dogkennelhillbilly Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I was on EDG at about 5pm today, there wasn't
> any
> > congestion at all. Is this kind of anecdata
> > useful?
> >
> > "the petition has nearly a thousand signatures
> > which is about 8% of the total population of
> East
> > Dulwich"
> >
> > Yeah, but change.org petitions of any
> persuasion
> > are a load of old tut. Those signatories aren't
> > all East Dulwich residents (or even necessarily
> > all real).
>
>
> Let's be honest, Change.org petitions are a lot
> more transparent than the consultation surveys the
> council conducts! winking smiley
>
> The thing that the pro-closure lobby doesn't seem
> to like right now is that there is a lot of
> dissent against the closures amongst a large
> swathe of the community and they seek to
> de-position and belittle to try and maintain the
> impression that everything is great and it is a
> minority of petrol-heads making a lot of noise.
> For the pro group they aren't that happy that the
> playing field is being levelled after having the
> council echo-chamber to themselves for so long.

The road isn't closed. None of the roads are closed. You can still drive your brum brum where you like. It might take longer. But if the journey is indeed 'essential', that shouldn't be too much of an issue.

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by Dogkennelhillbilly September 10, 08:29AM

"it is a minority of petrol-heads making a lot of noise."

Tbf you should probably get that exhaust looked at, it is very loud.

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by Spartacus September 10, 09:34AM

stecoward101 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> I am not sure how you equate 8% as pretty
> convincing support. I would consider 92% not
> signing it as more convincing.
>

I believe the CPZ was introduced by less people supporting it so to knock a thousand signature petition is like blowing raspberries in people's faces

Still I look forward to your counter petition to see how many actually support the changes made by the council.

If you think it will be 92% then put your money where your mouth is and start a supporting one.

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by exdulwicher September 10, 09:57AM

Quote:
I am not sure how you equate 8% as pretty convincing support. I would consider 92% not signing it as more convincing.

Yeah, statistics don't work like that! ^^

Petitions are interesting and most councils will give them lip service while trying their best to ignore them because they can be horrendously biased. There's a genuine art in creating a petition that does not lead the respondent to giving the "desired" answers from whichever side of the fence you're on and most petitions created, including a lot on Change.Org (because anyone can create a petition on there) fall foul of that and then can be ignored for that very reason.

Thank you for your petition, unfortunately it was a load of biased crap and we've therefore filed it in the bin".

I've posted this clip before on other threads but it's worth highlighting - how to create "leading" opinion polls/surveys:
[www.youtube.com]

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by Rockets September 10, 09:58AM

thebestnameshavegone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Rockets Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Dogkennelhillbilly Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > I was on EDG at about 5pm today, there wasn't
> > any
> > > congestion at all. Is this kind of anecdata
> > > useful?
> > >
> > > "the petition has nearly a thousand
> signatures
> > > which is about 8% of the total population of
> > East
> > > Dulwich"
> > >
> > > Yeah, but change.org petitions of any
> > persuasion
> > > are a load of old tut. Those signatories
> aren't
> > > all East Dulwich residents (or even
> necessarily
> > > all real).
> >
> >
> > Let's be honest, Change.org petitions are a lot
> > more transparent than the consultation surveys
> the
> > council conducts! winking smiley
> >
> > The thing that the pro-closure lobby doesn't
> seem
> > to like right now is that there is a lot of
> > dissent against the closures amongst a large
> > swathe of the community and they seek to
> > de-position and belittle to try and maintain
> the
> > impression that everything is great and it is a
> > minority of petrol-heads making a lot of noise.
> > For the pro group they aren't that happy that
> the
> > playing field is being levelled after having
> the
> > council echo-chamber to themselves for so long.
>
> The road isn't closed. None of the roads are
> closed. You can still drive your brum brum where
> you like. It might take longer. But if the journey
> is indeed 'essential', that shouldn't be too much
> of an issue.

But they are closed to through-traffic aren't they?

Whilst I hate the Daily Mail there is certainly a nationwide campaign starting against these closures and it will gain more and more momentum. The more people who become aware of it the more pressure will be heaped on councils to justify what they are doing and why they are doing it and they will have to prove it is having a positive impact. Previously they had carte blanche to put these things in place with little or no justification because there were only a few dissenting voices - the good thing now is there will have to be transparency where before there was none.

If I was a betting man I think the council will end-up having to remove some of the closures - and then the pro-closure lobbies can fight amongst themselves over which roads re-open again! The folly was doing everything at once as the first closure in DV had a negative impact on EDG and now they have closed Melbourne it is making it even worse and each closure is amplifying the problem.

When the timed closures in DV come in that will push huge amounts of traffic down Croxted Road and the A205 and Lordship Lane it's only going to get worse again.

The council are chasing the displacement and that is a very slippery path.

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by thebestnameshavegone September 10, 10:36AM

You can still drive round, if there's something essential for you in Melbourne Grove?

There is no 'nationwide campaign' - a newspaper, worried about falling ad revenue, has to present any story as something incendiary, or a 'fury' to get clicks.

The amount of vehicles on the roads has doubled in the last 30 years, which isn't sustainable - so if you're upset about the volume of traffic now, unless more drastic measures are taken pretty soon it will get far, far worse.

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by Rockets September 10, 10:56AM

thebestnameshavegone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You can still drive round, if there's something
> essential for you in Melbourne Grove?
>
> There is no 'nationwide campaign' - a newspaper,
> worried about falling ad revenue, has to present
> any story as something incendiary, or a 'fury' to
> get clicks.
>
> The amount of vehicles on the roads has doubled in
> the last 30 years, which isn't sustainable - so if
> you're upset about the volume of traffic now,
> unless more drastic measures are taken pretty soon
> it will get far, far worse.

But it's interesting isn't it, Southwark has one of the lowest car uses of all the London boroughs and the data presented (and then manipulated by the council for their own benefits) showed, quite clearly that there had been a gradual decline in the number of car journeys through the DV junction across 5 or so years.

I think you will find there is a nationwide campaign beginning to grow - there is a lot of publicity about these closures in a broad range of media (I saw a piece on BBC London News some weeks ago on the same subject) and the more people who read or hear about it the more people likely to say "hang on a minute" and may question what is happening. It's the very essence of a grass roots campaign. Look at One Dulwich and the support they have. Look at the similar community-led action programmes all across London trying to get a more balanced and sensible approach to the problems. The councils have to do something to re-control the narrative else they will lose it completely and that has dire consequences for everyone - for or against.

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by exdulwicher September 10, 11:24AM

Quote:
The council are chasing the displacement and that is a very slippery path.

They're not because there hasn't been time to examine the outcome, propose further mitigation and implement it.

It's just the phasing of the agreed plans as they don't have the resources to put everything in at once, it's all going in over the space of about a month or so. That's the same nationally by the way, I don't have any behind the scenes insight into Southwark other than what is on their website.

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by Rockets September 10, 12:19PM

exdulwicher Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The council are chasing the displacement and that
> is a very slippery path.
>
> They're not because there hasn't been time to
> examine the outcome, propose further mitigation
> and implement it.
>
> It's just the phasing of the agreed plans as they
> don't have the resources to put everything in at
> once, it's all going in over the space of about a
> month or so. That's the same nationally by the
> way, I don't have any behind the scenes insight
> into Southwark other than what is on their
> website.


Were the closures of the roads surrounding Melbourne Grove part of the OHS plan?

I am not sure how anyone can expect to drop a load of closures on a small area and not have a massively detrimental impact - or perhaps they don't care.

On that point does aynone know whether other parts of Southwark are getting such concentrated clusters of road closures in a small area or has Dulwich been singled out for special attention?

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by stecoward101 September 10, 12:27PM

@Spaticus - I am not sure I need to set up a petition as the road is blocked off, which is what the community needs.

However, I do mot think that 92% of he population would sign a counter petition as a some people do not have an opinion
on the closure.

I am bored of pointless questions.

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by stecoward101 September 10, 12:34PM

@Rockets 'and then manipulated by the council for their own benefit'. Why would a council manipulate the data. They want to reduce the number of cars.

It does not matter If Southwark have a lower car use than most other boroughs as if it is still high then you need to do something.

rockets, this is not rocket science.

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by Rockets September 10, 12:38PM

exdulwicher Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am not sure how you equate 8% as pretty
> convincing support. I would consider 92% not
> signing it as more convincing.
>
> Yeah, statistics don't work like that! ^^
>
> Petitions are interesting and most councils will
> give them lip service while trying their best to
> ignore them because they can be horrendously
> biased. There's a genuine art in creating a
> petition that does not lead the respondent to
> giving the "desired" answers from whichever side
> of the fence you're on and most petitions created,
> including a lot on Change.Org (because anyone can
> create a petition on there) fall foul of that and
> then can be ignored for that very reason.
>
> Thank you for your petition, unfortunately it was
> a load of biased crap and we've therefore filed it
> in the bin".
>
> I've posted this clip before on other threads but
> it's worth highlighting - how to create "leading"
> opinion polls/surveys:
> [www.youtube.com]


It's ironic that councils will pay lip service to petitions due to them being flawed yet themselves create surveys and consultations that include some of the most biased and leading questions you will ever see! winking smiley Trying to leave anything other than a glowing endorsement of their street closures is a battle in itself, although I notice they had edited it recently to give it more balance but version one was like Henry Kissinger addressing the media: "Does anyone have any questions for my answers."

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by exdulwicher September 10, 12:39PM

Quote:
On that point does aynone know whether other parts of Southwark are getting such concentrated clusters of road closures in a small area or has Dulwich been singled out for special attention?

A fair chunk gone in around Walworth/Newington, an LTN within the estate between the Kennington Underground Station and Walworth Road.
And further up the road in Lambeth is the Oval LTN.

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by Rockets September 10, 12:48PM

I wonder if we are particularly unlucky to get such a concentrated cluster in a small area, seemingly without any co-ordination between the local councillors on negative impact (although they did, of course, acknowledge during their door-to-door lobbying of the streets targeted for closure that there would be significant displacement).

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by FairTgirl September 10, 01:00PM

The question has been put and we hope to recieve some clear answers on how many houses and who was visited by whom and when, prior to these road closures as some houses definitely were visited by at least one councillor, by their own admission.

Southwark Council and thus councillors have all of the businesses email addresses and postal addresses as they all pay business rates and they didn't email any of them. You don't have to leave your house to send an email.

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by Dogkennelhillbilly September 10, 04:16PM

"If I was a betting man I think the council will end-up having to remove some of the closures"

That's not much of a gamble. It would be remarkable if they all stayed. They're temporary and experimental. Some of them will fail - others will become redundant because the short term issue they were responding to has disappeared (eg COVID is over so no social distancing so no need for wider pavements).

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by Dogkennelhillbilly September 10, 04:23PM

"Southwark has one of the lowest car uses of all the London boroughs"

Well, yeah - Southwark is one of the most densely populated boroughs in London and the UK, and 31% of residents live in poverty. Of course its residents are going to drive less than people in Bromley or Hillingdon: the distances are smaller, there is less road space, there is less room to park, car insurance is expensive, and the traffic is worse. It's all those factors that mean even if there were zero local pollution from vehicles, we would still have to wrestle with congestion.

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by Abe_froeman September 10, 04:38PM

We ended up with this small cluster to create a corridor so that people could cycle from 418 chinese restaurant to Kwik Fit.

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by exdulwicher September 10, 05:11PM

Quote:
Southwark has one of the lowest car uses of all the London boroughs

The problem with that stat is that "Southwark" covers nearly 29 square km of everything from deprived areas, ongoing regeneration and very affluent areas and there's a marked change in urban geography and demographic between say, Elephant & Castle and Dulwich Village.

Dulwich itself has one of the highest levels of car ownership within the borough but if you take some of the areas of North Southwark with the lowest levels of car ownership and than get an average across the entire borough, it appears lower.

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by rupert james September 10, 05:32PM

How does Southwark get these numbers. Direct from DVLA registration or off an from official must complete survey in the borough census.

Have to admit when I have been through the so called poor areas there are many many expensive cars being driven by young people and parked up.

Makes you wonder if these surveys are worth the effort and are the truth.

Goto Page: Previous1234567Next
Current Page: 4 of 7

Back to top of page
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
Donate                   Terms of use                  Help & FAQs                   Advertise               RSS rss feed               Copyright 2006 - 2018 East Dulwich Forum