Rockets

In a year we have come full circle on e-scooters - just over a year ago there was a lot of publicity about their safety and suitability following the death of the blogger Emily Hartridge who was killed whilst riding one. You're right they are illegal to own privately but ok to rent. I think the authorities want to see whether they can regulate the e-scooters sufficiently to reduce the risk of accident - the issue at the moment seems to be that some of the private e-scooters can go way too fast and the riders have no idea how to ride them. I was walking near Hyde Park Corner recently and saw a rider in a near miss as he was weaving his way across the lanes in between cars - he obviously had no clue how to ride it safely and was going way too fast. I was in Munich last year and they have them there to rent but they are, deliberately, very slow but the locals like to ride them (I saw a lot riding them from the railway stations to the office complexes) but hate the fact their streets are littered with the things as there has been an e-scooter gold rush as companies flock to try and make money from renting them and they tend to be abandoned on every street - they don't seem to have a central hub system like the Boris bikes.

ianjm Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Lots of shouting, dogs, and about a dozen police > cars out the front right now (8:50pm) Sounds like a helicopter is up now too.

Just got this message from the ticketing company organising the ED LTN meetings on Friday: Get excited! Your event East Dulwich Experimental Highways Measures - Community Meeting is coming up soon! The excitement is building!

The milkman is definitely having something of a renaissance and I am all for it!

redpost Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I know that home delivery services act as > aggregators of goods and reduce traffic to varying > degrees depending upon the deliverees propensity > to use a car for shopping. > > The milkman of old days served the same purpose - > customers don't need to go down the shops for > milk > > The postman today serves the same purpose - no one > needs to go down the delivery office for post > > It can be proved formally with probability and > graph theory. But the milkman of old used to deliver everyone's milk in an electric vehicle and they did everyone's milk on the street. Now someone gets their milk from Ocado, another from Sainsburys, another from Tesco etc etc etc.....our street is filled with the constant sound of beeping supermarket vans reversing and that deep thudding of deliveries being unloaded in the back of a van. And everyone uses a different supplier. Now grocery deliveries are invariably a like for like replacement of a car journey but as legal says once you get into Amazon territory that's when the volumes increase massively. So net/net I am not at all convinced that home deliveries are reducing traffic at all, in fact the complete opposite is true.

Redpost - no because the pharmaceutical industry is held to much higher standards than other industries when it comes to the publication of such research - it has to be. So no, the paper heralding the greenness of the logistics industry, published in the logistics industry chartered institutes' house magazine, that is authored by a fellow of said chartered institute, that comes to no discernible conclusions, is full of if, buts and maybes and makes some glaringly obvious conclusions/overlooks some key factors to find the answer they want, that is so dated that it makes the info presented absolutely meaningless now - for example, how many delivery companies now return to the house to pick up unwanted parcels - is not the same status as an independently peer-reviewed article based on independently peer-reviewed research about a vaccine trial in The Lancet? Anyway, back to the original point - do you believe that home deliveries are not contributing to the increase in traffic on residential roads?

alex_b Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Rockets, it sounds like you?re accusing a number > of academics and their professional society of > research misconduct. Do you have any evidence to > demonstrate this or to counter the measurements > and assumptions they?ve set out in their report? Not research misconduct - your words not mine. I just understand how the research game works when it comes to outbound communications and how communications departments within groups like CILT use paid research. The first bow in any PR campaign's armoury is research...it's an extension of the well-known phrase: Lies, damned lies, and statistics...... Feel free to PM me if you want any more details on how it works.

Can someone who lives in the Goose Green ward please extend my thanks to Cllr McAsh for pushing to get this meeting in place? ;-)

Given the DV closures went in way before the ED closures it is interesting that this one goes first. Does anyone know why?

Redpost - I am sorry to pushback on your attempt to stereo-type and pigeon-hole but I hate the Daily Mail and all it stands for! ;-) Funny how that accusing people of being a Daily Mail reader becomes the go-to position for many when the questioning or debate doesn't go their way. They may be professors but it it is clear they were commissioned by the CILT to write the report...and I suggest the people who commissioned the report knew exactly what they wanted the research to show.....it's called a pay for play ....and it's like when Henry Kissinger addressed a group of journalists by saying: "Does anyone have any questions for my answers".

redpost Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.greenlogistics.org/SiteResources/343c53 > 12-af8f-4cc0-a271-4191cb2ccdff_Edwards-McKinnon-Sh > oppingTripOrHomeDelivery-FocusLogisticsJuly2009.pd > f > > 1) avg home delivery = 181 g of co2 > 2) dedicated bus trip to shop = 1265 g of co2 > 3) dedicated car trip = 4274 g of co2 Redpost - really......you are quoting stats from a report commissioned by the Chartered Institute of Logistics and Transport....that is about as balanced and believable as an article in the Guardian on LTNs penned by Peter Walker.....;-)

Redpost - firstly I didn't say everything bought online comes from Asia - you seemed to have interpreted that incorrectly. Secondly, you're basic math is just that. You're making the incorrect presumption that each home delivery purchase would equate to a single car journey. Which it doesn't. There is a whole different psychology to home shopping and it is designed to stimulate more, often unnecessary, purchases. Consider that the phenomenon of going on a shopping trip where people would get in their car and drive to a shopping centre or get on the train to go shopping in London is very much a thing of the past. People would go to a single venue and purchase many things from many different retailers and take them home with them. They don't do that anymore - it's why shopping centres are struggling and we have the whole concept of not only death of the high street but death of the out of town shopping centre. A new generation of shoppers will now forgo venturing outside of their house and go to those retailers online as 1) the pricing is often more competitive 2) they don't have to leave their home 3) it can be delivered in days (if not the same day) and 4) they avoid the wasted trip syndrome if the retailer doesn't have what they want. So it's not a simple as your maths suggests. People don't drive to 10 different places to buy 10 different goods but they will go to 10 different online retailers to have them delivered. Oh, and one of our memories must be fading as my Tulse Hill journey analogy was exactly that - if I remember correctly we were discussing journeys to and from Tulse Hill should the council proceed with their OHS folly of closing Dulwich Village to through traffic and effectively creating traffic chaos on the A205 etc - which oh, they didn't manage to get through via OHS but Covid instead...... If I have that wrong feel free to correct me ;-).

malumbu Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Issue with deliveries are the amount of stuff that > is returned. No stats to hand but reducing the > amount of stuff being bought on spec and then > returned free of charge will all add up. > > There's lots of good stuff about consolidating > deliveries before the final destination, > increasing local deliveries by bike, and the use > of pick up points. Oh the howls of protests as > our streets become congested with e cargo bikes! Malumbu - I agree but rather ironically returns are far more efficient as they get funnelled into a single channel - most people have to return their goods via the Post Office or a Collect+ or equivalent store and often walk to do it. How many times have people been in the Post Office to find themselves behind someone with a bag full of parcels for return! ;-) Much more has to be done to solve the home delivery conundrum and all the major distributors are experimenting with drones (both airborne and road-borne) so they can take a larger vehicle that then distribute parcels for the last mile via drones and the like (the road drones aren't seen as a solution as they can get stolen). I would love to see more local deliveries by cargo bike but I suspect the selection of goods is the bigger challenge there - and if I am typical of most if I want something from Lordship Lane I walk there to get it myself! ;-)

redpost Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > i think you've got this very wrong pinning it on > delivery companies. > > Take DPD for example, they visit our street once a > day. The driver makes around 200 drops in the > area, driving short distances between stops. Often > dropping multiple parcels on one stop. Likewise > parcelforce & hermes. > > Occasional visit from the smaller couriers: DHL, > Fedex, UPS, city sprint etc > > And then white amazon vans (contractors), one drop > in the morning. A more dispersed drop in the > evening for same day delivery. > > Compare with everyone driving to the shops to make > a purchase, and you'll see that deliveries act as > aggregators and are very efficient. Software > calculates the optimum sequence of drops to > minimise distance even taking hills into account > (don't go up and down the same hill) > > Supermarket deliveries aren't so good, they can't > carry as many deliveries, are time limited (cold > ness) and don't have the density of drops. But > again, certainly a lot more efficient than > everyone driving to the supermarket. > > > > > > > > Rockets Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > alex_b Wrote: > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > ----- > > > redpost Wrote: > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > ----- > > > > it's not the 1960's any more, car > owenership > > > and > > > > usage are at all time highs > > > > > > I can?t find any data to support that. What I > > can > > > find (e.g. > > > > > > https://www.centreforlondon.org/reader/parking-ker > > > > > > > > > bside-mangement/chapter-1/#travel-habits-are-chang > > > > > > ing-but-modal-shift-is-slow) suggests flat or > > > slightly declining car ownership and usage in > > > London over the last 15 years. As someone > else > > > posted up thread there has been a dramatic > rise > > in > > > the use of residential roads in London > > coinciding > > > with the rise of navigation apps but these > seem > > to > > > be journeys displaced from major roads. > > > > > > Do you have anything to suggest that car > > ownership > > > or usage are at an all time high? > > > > > > Private car ownership in London has been > > decreasing for some time now (although the > further > > out of London you get where transport links are > > not as good and so the decline is slower). If > > anyone bothers to do any proper analysis I > think > > we will find that delivery companies are > > responsible for a lot of the "increase" in > > residential road use. A couple of > > Ocado/Tesco/Sainsburys vans and a couple of > Amazon > > deliveries on a quiet residential road can > > massively "increase" the % of daily usage for > that > > street. > > > > As shopping habits move online so the negative > > cost has been an increase in cars on side roads > - > > it gives the pro-closure lobby some nice > headline > > stats but scratch beneath the surface and you > can > > start to piece parts of the jigsaw together. > > > > I re-post the Guardian article I found over the > > weekend which digs deeper into London's > challenges > > with "cars" and the fact London's private car > > ownership is falling. > > > > > > > https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/feb/11/h > > > > ow-london-got-rid-of-private-cars-and-grew-more-co > > > ngested-than-ever Home deliveries are not efficient, especially when they a delivering goods sourced in Asia and sent on incredibly polluting cargo ships. Online shopping invariably means people buy more which results in more deliveries being made - more often than not in high polluting diesel vehicles that are doing very short stop start journeys. Amazon is under huge amounts of pressure to stop same day deliveries due to the negative environmental impacts of the "I need it now" culture. Often they don't need it now they just want it now. Amazon, and other online retailers do little to stop multiple deliveries to the same address on any day. Your DPD example just illustrates the point. If that driver makes 200 drops in a given area I guarantee that most of that delivery driver's time is spent on side roads - that driver is contributing massively to the number of "journeys" made on sideroads - if they have 2 drops per road they will hit 100 different roads. I am convinced that private car journeys are decreasing but it is the shift to the home delivery culture that is creating the increase in vehicle journeys and I am not convinced that goes away if you close roads in the area.

alex_b Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > redpost Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > it's not the 1960's any more, car owenership > and > > usage are at all time highs > > I can?t find any data to support that. What I can > find (e.g. > https://www.centreforlondon.org/reader/parking-ker > bside-mangement/chapter-1/#travel-habits-are-chang > ing-but-modal-shift-is-slow) suggests flat or > slightly declining car ownership and usage in > London over the last 15 years. As someone else > posted up thread there has been a dramatic rise in > the use of residential roads in London coinciding > with the rise of navigation apps but these seem to > be journeys displaced from major roads. > > Do you have anything to suggest that car ownership > or usage are at an all time high? Private car ownership in London has been decreasing for some time now (although the further out of London you get where transport links are not as good and so the decline is slower). If anyone bothers to do any proper analysis I think we will find that delivery companies are responsible for a lot of the "increase" in residential road use. A couple of Ocado/Tesco/Sainsburys vans and a couple of Amazon deliveries on a quiet residential road can massively "increase" the % of daily usage for that street. As shopping habits move online so the negative cost has been an increase in cars on side roads - it gives the pro-closure lobby some nice headline stats but scratch beneath the surface and you can start to piece parts of the jigsaw together. I re-post the Guardian article I found over the weekend which digs deeper into London's challenges with "cars" and the fact London's private car ownership is falling. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/feb/11/how-london-got-rid-of-private-cars-and-grew-more-congested-than-ever

I think we can all agree that something has to be done about transportation links in the area, especially east/west. There is a reason why Dulwich performs poorly on PTAL scores and that is a lack of adequate public transportation through and across the area. And, to be honest, it's why many parts of Dulwich have changed so much over the last 20 years or so - the lack of good transport options kept house prices down until a point when the prices were too good to be overlooked for this close to London.

But Malumbu - not sure how you can discuss this without talking about politics. The decisions impacting Dulwich at the moment are political, being made by representatives of a political party that has zero opposition. Saying that the area needs political opposition isn?t a bad thing is it? Not sure how you suggest people divorce politics from this. Just because you don?t want to discuss the political element of this doesn?t mean other people don?t. Thus far you have told people not to talk about politics, or the influence of cycle lobby groups groups on local decision-making.....anything else you deem inappropriate for this forum.....?

Agree. But as we have seen time and time again common sense doesn't seem to prevail when it comes to Southwark council in Dulwich!

I think it is very telling that during weekends during this latest lockdown that the roads surrounding the park are crowded with parked cars and the park itself much more crowded. It's a very popular park and the catchment area is much broader than us residents who are able to walk to it.

rch Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Bear in mind that the Lib Dem candidate listed in > your link above owns a house directly behind the > closed DV junction, which overlooks her front > garden. > > I served as both a Tory and a Lib Dem councillor, > crossing over out of frustration, but had serious > issues with both manifestoes. However, I find the > Lib Dems in the north of the borough to be more in > tune with residents? views than those in the > south. Hence, I also found Nick Johnson?s article > intriguing. > > In my opinion, a split party government is the > best way forward, as one party with a serious > majority tends to railroad decisions through. > > Another option is to form an entirely separate new > political party... I completely agree - these decisions by our council are indicative of one that has no opposition. It was interesting during the recent Cabinet meeting that the two Lib Dem councillors from the north of the borough were saying that Sadiq Khan had done little for the residents in Southwark and listed a number of initiatives that had been cancelled by the mayor. Cllr Williams interjected and said they should not be political point-scoring and then he went into a passionate political point-scoring defence of Sadiq and all the good he had done...much nodding in agreement from the Labour councillors while the Lib Dems smiled..... Why did the council kill the green bus initiative...it sounds like an idea that this area is crying out for? RCH how should we be fighting these closures - the council seems to be doing everything in their power to silence any sort of debate about them? Southwark definitely needs some sort of opposition to ensure transparency.

You can see why the emergency services love things that block roads....imagine that police car is responding to your emergency call....blocking roads seems more and more foolish every day.....

Speaking of the Guardian a very interesting pre-lockdown article that looked at congestion, well worth a read..... This quote in particular stuck out for me in light of what we are seeing today with the LTNs... For McNamara, there is a clear class dimension to the debate: ?The myth of the anti-car lobby is that it?s someone in a Rolls-Royce flicking cigar ash out of the window at the cyclists. It?s the working class that are driving the commercial vehicles in central London, and they are being forced out by the wealthy inner-London elite, who can afford to live in Islington and want to ride their bike to St Pancras. They want to sit in Oxford Circus and drink their skinny caramel coconut latte without any thought about how the constituent parts got there. And they want something, they buy it on their phone and they expect it delivered the next day.? But then, as Travers says: ?The truth is that almost everyone using the streets ? cabs, buses, pedestrians and cyclists ? has a sense of entitlement.? https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2020/feb/11/how-london-got-rid-of-private-cars-and-grew-more-congested-than-ever?__twitter_impression=true

sally buying Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > What is not mentioned regarding these photos is > that many of these estates were built 70 years ago > and these estate roads went nowhere except round > the estate. > > Also when they were built people did not own > motorcars in any number. > > They have always been LTN's due to where they are. > > > Southwark made many of these estate roads one way > many many years ago. Exactly. Trying to suggest that these are comparable to the closing of the DV junction or any other through routes by the person who wrote the EDSTN thread is beyond tenuous! Unless of course they are trying to suggest that people used to drive around the estates for the hell of it!!! ;-) I do wonder if the author wanted to try and make a point that LTNs are not just a trapping for the super affluent but failed miserably in their attempt. That one picture with the bike on the top floor balcony really demonstrated how some of these pro-closure lobbyists really need to step out of their privileged lives in their huge houses in one of the most affluent parts of London and apply these closures from everybody else's purview......can you imagine trying to get a cargo bike up the stairs of those flats!

Ex- I think what both those twitter threads demonstrate is that there are absolute numpties on both sides of the argument ;-) Legal - the council are trying to move away from actual monitoring and are suggesting modelling is the way they are going to determine the success (or otherwise) - there are very limited monitoring stations in place and many of them went in after the closures went into place (the council originally only put monitoring in on the closed roads like Court Lane and Calton Avenue and nothing went in on the roads soaking up the displacement). It's why I was asking this question of Cllr McAsh; he was unable to provide any answers to where monitoring went and in and when - he had been asking the council but could not get an answer. It is very interesting that the Guy's charity running the 3 LTNs in Southwark has insisted to the council that ?50,000 of the money is invested in actual monitoring so they can properly assess the displacement. To your other point I also noticed a lot of traffic queuing through Dulwich Village when I was on an early morning run - I think a lot of people are trying to get through by 8am. I also noticed on the run the point someone else made that the signage is not at all clear. I ran along Gallery Road from the A205 and there are no signs until you get to the roundabout and I suspect many drivers are seeing the timed road closed signs on the roundabout and then turning left down Burbage and are not seeing the closed sign on Burbage as it is obscured by that very tight left hand turn.

On the subject of blocking has anyone else noticed that The Guardian seems to have turned off comments on LTN articles? Or was it that you could only ever leave comments on Opinion pieces?