Rockets

Seemingly the AA agrees with me that I might have a point and I fell victim to a "money making exercise" - a trap designed by Southwark to raise money - I suspect a lot of other people have fallen victim to it as well. Nearly 10 million PCNs being issued in London does suggest something very awry is going on.....

BBC News - Chancellor admits breaking housing rules by renting out home https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cd04d0yxnrvo One wonders if Southwark will go after her....;-)

No - unclear guidance and road markings between Southwark and TFL over bus lanes. Southwark runs bus lane lines right to a left turn junction and places cameras in front of said junction and fines anyone who touches the line when turning left. TFL stops the bus lane lines well ahead of the junction and gives left turning drivers 10m grace. Drive along Lordship Lane and look at the Overhill and Underhill junctions for comparison. One is Southwark (and probably racking up the fines) and one is TFL. Therein lies the difference and a very real example of how councils are laying revenue generating traps, or as the AA refers to them money-making exercises, for drivers.

Hey @Earl Aelfheah it's not me saying it but the AA..."a money making exercise" - pretty much sums up a lot of the programmes disguised as "promoting active travel" or "in the interests of road safety". The president of the AA, Edmund King, has said: “While there is a need to protect parking spaces and bus lanes from drivers who break rules and make life difficult for other road users, London enforcement that used to be for deterrence is now a money-making exercise for TfL and London councils”. “Sadly, too many drivers, who are certain they did nothing wrong or the road and sign layout was in effect a trap, paid the half-rate within 14 days instead of contesting the PCN. Such is the fear of having to pay fines that are more than a day’s wages and often don’t fit the nature of the offence, such as being one wheel over the line.” Ha ha...one wheel over the line...he must have heard me!

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/ten-million-parking-fines-pcns-london-drivers-b2853591.html

It's also about implementation and the powers given to local authorities to police these things and whether they are doing so in a fair way. The signage for the CPZ on Calton was shocking and clearly designed to trap people. The signage at the entrance of Burbage was not viewable from anyone approaching along Gallery Road And I touched the white line in a bus lane turning onto Overhill and got fined by Southwark whilst if I had done it 100 metres down the road on the TFL road I would not have been fined. Some believe councils are laying traps to generate revenue from motorists.

It seems to many of us that the reason many of these threads exist is because those in power take a very anti-motorcentric view and are not pragmatic in the way these things are rolled out. I mean even @Earl Aelfheah kind of agreed..... Come on @exdulwicher you're supposed to be an expert on such things and the above comment seems to be deliberately daft - if journeys do take longer can you work out how that might have a negative economic impact (let me give you a clue - it's not about people sitting in cars driving to work......;-)) The Welsh government bothered to model it....and one wonders if TFL did too.... I don't think anyone suggested it was a money saving scheme....it probably makes a few bob mind you....

Come on @exdulwicher that's what's called doing an @Earl Aelfheah...in the context of the discussion your usage does not stand up to any level of scrutiny!

Hang on @Earl Aelfheah where do I state there is an economic impact?You're doing your twisting what was said thing again and misrepresenting what people write. May I suggest you go back and have another read. Did I just not pose a question based on the economic assessment the Welsh government did and asked whether TFL and/or the mayor had done one as well?

Err, some of those links are tenuous at best and read more like a "we think someone once said this so therefore it must be true". Click the link on the 20mph does not increase journey times one.......;-) This is why I am asking if anyone has seen that analysis as the Welsh did it and came up with a figure. No, you and I were both saying that imposing 20mph on the A205 seemed a little bit of overkill - or have you changed your position now?

I notice cameras have also gone up in front of Goodrich School at the junction of Uplands pointing towards Dunstans. Are they planning on there as well? Of course they do....cos it's all about the revenue.....does that enable them to drive through the street during school street operation hours I presume?

Let's be honest being aware of signage and seeing signage are two very different things and there are plenty of good local examples where the council has placed signage in places where drivers would not necessarily see it - the entrance to Burbage Road at the apex of the junction with Dulwich Village and the pathetic signage "alerting" drivers to a CPZ on Calton - which I hasten to add in the latter case the council admitted were not fit for purpose and changed after complaints. If you're having to stop to read road traffic signage then the signage is not fit for purpose.

Do you have the link? Always be deeply suspicious of infographics that have not link to the source. I am not sure how TFL can get away with the source data quote: *This infographic uses statistics from research into 20mph limits and 20mph zones by TfL, DfT, independent academics, city councils and transport consultancies That wouldn't pass the legal bar the company I work for sources on infographics.....and when you start following the links on the last page of the infographics you realise the claims are headline claims are tenuous at least..... @Earl Aelfheah you and I actually agreed that the 20mph limit on the A205 didn't seem to be the most pragmatic approach and I am not arguing it's poor investment just whether TFL or the Mayor's office did the same type of economic analysis that the Welsh government did as there will be an economic impact of slowing traffic - regardless of whether TFL claims that there are "negligible" impacts on journey times - it would be interesting to see what "negligible" actually means as that infographic seems heavy on propaganda and light on the detail. Very much an infographic aimed at those who love a headline stat but don't bother to look at the data behind it....

I presume they will still be allowing buses to use the street when it is in operation?

It may also have been a "regroup" where the TSG move to another location to muster in case they are needed....a "regroup" may also be used when they are, ahem, hungry and need to get to a feeding station. The old East Dulwich police station used to be a feeding and watering hole and was often used as such and mobile units would rush there at feeding time!

BBC News - Family pledges to rebuild ski shop wrecked by fire https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c4gz77qpex2o

But surely there must have been an impact assessment done by TFL, the Mayor's office and local authorities on what rolling out blanket 20mph would have in both positive and negative terms - clearly the Welsh government did it? It's interesting because earlier this year TFL put out a press release entitled: Powerful new long-term TfL research shows 20mph speed limits save lives on London’s roads Does anyone have a link to this particular piece of research as it is not linked on the TFL press release website? Interestingly the research was focused on 150 20mph zones implemented between 1989 and 2013 and I was interested in determining where those 20mph zones were. Interestingly the press release does call out other positive impacts on road safety during that period of time and says that 20mph was not the sole contributory factor and that this was factored into the research. Does anyone know where that report can be found, normally a link can be found on the press release website of TFL but there isn't one for this one and even AI cannot find it?

Do you have a link to that? I suspect this may be because none has been done or it has not been released. I believe the Welsh economic impact figure came out due to an FOI as it was part of the impact assessment the Welsh government did before implementing it. One presumes TFL, the Mayor's office and local councils must have done one before rolling out the 20mph? Because I am talking about economic impact and when talking about arterial routes like the A205 they used to flow at 30mph and traffic lights were phased to keep it moving as such. Have you noticed how journeys are now taking longer in London - that has an economic impact.

But @Earl Aelfheah is the arterial road network throughout London not calibrated via traffic signals to keep it free-flowing as much as possible? It certainly used to be. Maybe you ought to think...if the economic impact of the 20mph rules in, as you describe it as less-densely populate area like Wales, is £4.5bn then what would it be in a much more densely populated area like London where many more vehicular journeys are taking place in a much more densely populated area and where major arterial routes around the city like the A205 are subject to 20mph limits? If what @snowy says is true that only 39% of Welsh roads were subject to the 20mph limit and the Welsh government's own research showed the economic impact of that was £4.5bn what is the economic impact of 20mph across large swathes of London - surely TFL and the Major's office would have done that as part of an impact assessment before rolling the measures out - that is how the Welsh £4.5bn came to light as it was part of their impact assessment? That's just a guess - the only thing we can definitively say is that for every mile at 20mph vs 30mph a journey takes one minute longer per mile. I think anyone who regularly drives, or is driven, around London can see that journey times have increased in line with the above (if not more so). And this is where Imperial College were unable to show that 20mph led to more consistent speeds (or a definitive reduction in pollution)....they were hedging by saying that it MAY lead to a smoother driving style but they could not prove it would.

Imagine the economic impact in a densely populated area.... Yes and every mile at 20mph rather than 30mph takes one minute longer.......makes you think.... Well that's the defense the cyclist who killed the lady in Regent's Park offered during the hearing.... And for once we agree!

How come then that the Welsh government’s own impact assessment/research suggested that the blanket 20mph across Wales would cost the Welsh economy £4.5bn over 30 years…..? Has anyone done a similar piece of research for London? I think you are confused as I have been calling for bicycles to adhere to the rules of the road and the fact that it is ludicrous that the speed limits do not apply to cyclists and when a cyclist killed a pedestrian whilst he was doing around 28mph he faced no legal recourse by claiming the speed limit did not apply to him.

@snowy maybe go back and re-read what I posted…..you have conveniently ignored what happened in 2021….why might that be? I am sure you believe you are an excellent driver @malumbu but only if everyone drives that will does a reduction to 20mph has a positive impact on pollution levels (according to TFL and Imperial College). A lot of people do not so what does that do to claims made by Southwark that 20mph reduces pollution? Probably renders if meaningless….. One backed up by data that shows that is indeed the case…it doesn’t take a genius to work out why. Only few posts back you were claiming I was questioning your “expertise” because you said the police set the speed limit and I challenged you that they did not. I am glad you have acknowledged that your expertise didn’t quite extend to that fact and that it is the local traffic authority (TFL and Southwark where we live) sets the speed. And you fail to address the point that by the definition within the Highway Code it is a 20mph road and it is one of London’s key arterial routes that was developed as such. There are many ruins where it is more than one lane in each direction. According to the Highway Code 30mph is an appropriate speed limit. Let’s back up a bit @Earl Aelfheah as you are doing your usual trick of putting words into people’s mouths again. Please try to get your facts right, I am, saying that a more pragmatic approach is needed rather than a blanket 20mph…..which no more than a few posts back you also seemed to agree with…. Hang on, no more than few posts ago @Sue was claiming 30mph is 50% faster than 20mph….yet you claim it has no discernible difference to journey times. Which one is it?

Well @Sue I answered the first part addressing the "more people will walk and cycle if the speed limit is 20 mph" in my previous messages. TFL has actually addressed the claim around pollution by saying there is no difference in No2 pollution at 20mph but that if cars are driven in a "smoother" way at 20mph there may be a reduction in particulate matter. I think we all see cars being driven less smoothly as they accelerate and brake between speed cameras. Collisions, yes of course reducing speeds reduces the risk of accidents but most accidents happen at junctions and the A205, in the main, has junctions controlled by traffic lights. This is why that statement by Southwark is so flawed, much of what they claim does not pass the scrutiny test, it is a collection of ideological soundbites they know they can throw out and their supporters will throw around as fact. On this thread alone there have been two very clear examples of people making claims that are just nonsense (claims that police set the speed limit in the area and claims that 30mph on the Westway was because of ageing infrastructure). And this is the point, a pragmatic approach would say roads like the A205 should remain 30 mph, but the pragmatic approach is not the one taken. I ask you again, do you consider 30mph on a A-road like the A205 to be too fast or as you refer "speeding".

Because often those measures are not brought in pragmatically. The A205 being 20mph is one of those, the Westway elevated section being 30mph is another. I very often cycle to West London and I would never want to cycle along the A4 no matter what speed it was - that's me being pragmatic. I often see people trying to and I often think that is being driven by ideology or stupidity - or a dangerous combination of both! I have been doing that journey far longer than the 20mph blanket measures were brought in and the route I chose to go those measures have made zero difference because the route I use is wonderfully quiet and always has been. Do you really think the A205 should be 20mph? It's one of London's most important arterial routes and is the very definition of a 30mph road in the Highway Code. Surely you can put your ideology aside and use your traffic management expertise to acknowledge that?

Do you consider 30mph to be the definition of a speeding car? As I was saying....ideological claptrap. The blanket rollout of 20mph by councils like Southwark was driven by an anti-car ideology and was not at all pragmatic. I think some in the active travel lobby would refer to it as a "nudge technique"...