Rockets

@malumbu you need to stop knee-jerking, no-one said "it's all the cyclists fault". The subject matter experts invited to the London Assembly Transport Committee discussing why bus speeds have declined so much said that it was one of the contributing factors, certainly not the only factor and no-one on here has made that claim. But clearly lots of bus journeys are being impacted else the experts would not have claimed that cycle infrastrucutre is one of the contributing factors. Did you watch the YouTube video of the Committee meeting? What are your thoughts on what the assembled experts say in relation to that?

Hmmm, you may have overlooked walking as that performs the best in regard to your metrics.

One of the challenges discussed is the reallocation of spaces dedicated to speed up buses to cycles and this has been identified as one of the causes of slowing of the buses. Congestion is also being caused by the removal of space allocated to all road vehicles. This is why the guy from Travel Watch said vehicular traffic has been consistently dropping during the same period as the slowing of buses has been getting consistently worse. Clearly roadworks are a big issue and the guy from the bus company said this was being temporarily exacerbated by the removal of alternative routes around roadworks.

I know it has always been bad around there during school drop-off and pick-up but has it got worse since the redesign of Hunts Slip?

And they were concluding that some of the interventions were squeezing traffic making less and less available roadspace even though there was less vehicular traffic on the roads. The Travel Watch person said that he could not find stats on how much of the road space had been dedicated to cycle lanes or shared usage but he did cite the example of Chiswich High Road where the bus lanes had been removed to facilitate dedicated cycle lanes (I am not sure you would consider that Central). I thought the debate was very balanced; that they acknowledged the problems caused by slowing buses, discussed all of the factors contributing to it yet acknowledged the challenges of balancing priorities but it was very clear that one of the contributing factors is the provision of cycle infrastrucutre (that they all acknowledged was needed to keep cyclists safe). Well intended changes can often have negative consequences. @Penguin68 I am going to watch the video again where they mention growing evidence that some of the roads with most interventions to aid bus flow are some of the worst performing. It seemed to be something there was consensus that needed more analysis but it wasn't clear what they meant by interventions as they mentioned bus gates which are more of an LTN thing.

Unfortunately some people don't want balance and reasonableness as it doesnt suit their personal agenda. It's clear there are problems because the approach to active travel has been anything but balanced.

"Choice of materials"....hmmm what might that be in relation too...please see other thread about people crashing their bikes in Dulwich Square? In comedy, timing is everything. It was but @malumbu clearly thinks adults and children crashing their bikes on slippery materials in Dulwich Square is fair game and perfectly reasonable "facetious" material.

That was the point of the London Assembly Transport Committee meeting, to get expert opinion on what is causing the delays to buses. TFL is being called in January to present their thoughts.

@malumbu I would not joke about the slippery Dulwich Square as it sounds like a lot of people (and children) had accidents as a result so it is no laughing matter.

Have you watched the video @malumbu? Ouch! 😉

Three of the four experts reference it and they talk about it for some time as one of the key factors in bus delays. But they are talking about bus lanes - did you hear the union member saying that sharing bus lanes with bikes is great and needed for cycle safety but buses are being delayed by bikes as they cannot overtake them? I suggest no-one listen to @Earl Aelfheah and watches ten minutes of the video from the point at about 1 hour 7 minutes. It's very, very clear what they are discussing and the expert opinion they share.

Have you watched the video yet @Earl Aelfheah? I take it you have not.... P.S. you know the good news cited about cycling was in the very same report the bad news about buses was in? That bad news was the catalyst for the Transport Committee meeting with bus experts to try and determine why buses are getting slower and slower....

Well @Earl Aelfheah I am no expert, and I am sure you're not too, but the assembled panel of experts for the London Assembly meeting to address declining bus speeds would not agree with you. They all agreed that carriageway pressure is one of the major contributing factors (along with roadworks). One specifically cited cycle lanes, LTNs, 20mph limits and public realm as key factors affecting bus speeds. Interestingly later in the discussion they talk about growing evidence that routes with interventions are some of the worst performing. The guy from Travel Watch addresses the other vehicular traffic numbers and says that the number of other vehicles has been consistently decreasing whilst buses have been consistently getting slower. Apparently for every 10% drop in speeds they lose 6% of passengers. I would recommend watching from the timestamps I shared with @malumbu. Let's be clear they all acknowledge the challenge TFL has and the fact that cycle protection is important but all agree that the provision of cycle infrastrucutre it is an issue for average bus speeds (which is down to 7mph in central London apparently). I did love the question from an assembly member who said why is it an issue if when they cycle they do 15mph and buses are doing less!

He is a very considerate cyclist - mindful of his own safety but also mindful of vehicles wishing to pass him. Do you wish more cyclists cycled like that?

oh @malumbu......you know two days ago there was a London Assembly Transport Committee meeting to discuss why London buses are continuing to get slower and slower and why people are abandoning buses as a result....a panel of experts joined to discuss it - including a bus company, London Travel Watch and two union reps. Here is the link. Scroll to 1 hour 7 minutes in and have a listen for 10 minutes or so and see what the experts conclude and let me know what you think:

@malumbu absolutely spot on and cycling growth is great but there is a growing debate about at what cost to other modes - especially to walking and buses. There are many who think the Mayor and TFL has over-indexed on cycling and neglected other forms of transport and that buses, and bus passengers, are taking the brunt of it and, looking at the data, I think that is fair criticism.

@malumbu he is a very good cyclist - wearing a helmet, bright clothing, his positioning is very good, very well balanced between protecting himself and being mindful of allowing traffic to flow. He is what I would consider a well trained considerate cyclist (I count myself in that category too if you don't mind me saying!). The problem is there are so many people who have never had any sort of cycle training and just jump on a bike (Lime bike) and just wing it - putting themselves and others in danger. He certainly hasn't read articles saying he should take primary position and then just dumps himself there for the entirety of his journey - nor is his cycling erratic - you know that Lime bike look where the rider is hurtling along, often with phone in hand, weaving across the carriageway and using mind control to indicate they are about to turn! His comment about creating a positive road culture is spot on and I wish more cyclists would subscribe to that. Those described by @Angelina were doing the polar opposite. If all cyclists cycled like him I doubt anyone would have any gripes - but the big challenge is they don't.

No it's not - it's what was actually happening based on TFL's own data - based on fact. I am sorry you don't like how I phrased it but that does not make it dishonest. It is utterly ludicrous you are attacking those elements of what I said as I was not using that in the negative at all - merely highlighting the fact that suddenly growth has increased - I presume that because you are so upset by the use of the word decline you are equally upset by the use of the word increased. To be clear - and you have thus far managed to avoid commenting on this statement I posted earlier - the following is equally true isn't it? But it would also be true to say (to address the pedants amongst you) that there has been growth in cycle stages but between 2022 and 2024 cycle stage growth slowed dramatically and then between 2024 and 2025 increased massively (but no-one seems to know why). And that 43% growth in cycle stages from 2019 and 2025 is nowhere near the tenfold increase touted by the Mayor and TFL when they began their investment of around £800m in cycle infrastructure in 2021.

Err @Earl Aelfheah please do try to get the basis facts right at least - I asked people what the catalyst was for this year's growth after two years of growth decline/slowdown, else people may think you are engaging in dishonest rhetorical framing..... Genuine question - do you actually read my posts before launching an attack? Meanwhile on the buses - are we robbing Peter to pay Paul: https://southwarknews.co.uk/area/london/london-bus-speeds-worst-weve-seen-in-40-years-assembly-told/

What about lights? You didn't answer that bit..... Millions of people would respectfully disagree with you on the bright clothes issue. Remember the wise words from the fighter pilot...always wear high contrast clothes and a helmet...as a cyclist myself both seem like very, very sensible suggestions.

What is not true that I linked it to getting £800m of funding. You added the £800m, I said lobbying for funds. In 2020 they were lobbying for funds - they got £87m in the first round. You are constantly adding things people didn't say to aid your attacks. Multiple posters have had to tell you before but please stop it. You do it all the time. Again. Just nonsense. I pasted the opening sentence from the press release in it's entirety. That wasn't selective editing (something i notice you did to my 2021 post you passed to try to attack me). P.S. are you suggesting the 9.5x growth in cycling hasn't materialised because demand hasn't return? As a side note tube demand is back to between 81% and 88% of pre-covid levels. Growth. Yes. Close to the ten-fold Streetspace was touted as potentially delivering? Nowhere near. The TFL modelling was clearly either massively flawed or folks were trying to drive an opportunistic narrative? No matter the circumstances a tenfold increase was clearly never going to happen under any circumstances. Again. Nonsense. This latest round of attacks were triggered because I dared asked whether anyone knew what was creating the sudden rise in cycling growth. Again, I posted the LCC comments (which you attacked me for) to try and draw out a discussion. Clearly impossible when those you are engaging with are just here for an argument.

Did anyone actually make this claim - or are you putting words into people's mouths again? Nope. Wrong. Carefully re-read the press release. https://www.london.gov.uk/press-releases/mayoral/mayors-bold-plan-will-overhaul-capitals-streets?fbclid=IwdGRjcAOleDhjbGNrA6V4H2V4dG4DYWVtAjExAHNydGMGYXBwX2lkDDM1MDY4NTUzMTcyOAABHnjF6_KNVYD87w51L1CY3cxDmYTY7vuJ-W5EkVv-Dy0q2Lv8Bb8145EFPl9O_aem_tH55yqGGzEhBy4g5u7h3Fg I mean the headline tells you what they were saying: Mayor’s bold new Streetspace plan will overhaul London’s streets and so do the bullets linked to the headline: Transformation of London’s roads to be fast-tracked, giving space to new cycle lanes and wider pavements to enable social distancing Landmark locations to benefit from temporary bike routes and more space for walking to reduce pressure on Tube and buses Clean, green and sustainable travel to be at the heart of London’s recovery Cycling could increase 10-fold and walking five-fold post-lockdown And the first line: The Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan, and TfL have today unveiled their ‘London Streetspace’ programme which will rapidly transform London’s streets to accommodate a possible ten-fold increase in cycling and five-fold increase in walking when lockdown restrictions are eased. I mean, it's pretty clear (even to me) what they are saying. That's their view (interesting don't you think that they are saying they need to see more detail to determine where it is coming from). I thought it might catalyse some of you out of the attack dog zone and spur a discussion. Clearly not.

But it would also be true to say (to address the pedants amongst you) that there has been growth in cycle stages but between 2022 and 2024 cycle stage growth slowed dramatically and then between 2024 and 2025 increased massively (but no-one seems to know why). And that 43% growth in cycle stages from 2019 and 2025 is nowhere near the tenfold increase touted by the Mayor and TFL when they began their investment of around £800m in cycle infrastructure in 2021. @Earl Aelfheah yes or no will suffice. It is true to say that isn't it? I don't know that was why I was asking the cycle experts and protagonists on here - to see if anyone knew. Normally there's someone who has the inside track on what is happening in the world of cycling and quick to laud increases like that. It's not Santander as that is still at the lower levels after casual users declined. Your good friends the LCC had a guess at what was driving it: https://lcc.org.uk/news/1-5-million-cycled-journeys-daily-woo-hoo/ Why is cycling booming? Until we see a lot more detail from TfL with their next full Travel In London report, it’s difficult to assess exactly what’s going on, but we’d suggest that the growth in cycling comes down to two major themes… 1. Dockless hire We have heard several times that ‘gig economy’ cycling for companies such as Uber Eats and Deliveroo now accounts for circa 10 percent of all cycling in London – obviously though this is a relatively small number of riders each doing lots of journeys daily. But a second circa 10 percent is now accounted for by dockless hire cycle journeys from users of Lime, Forest, Voi and other operators’ bikes. Both types of riders and approaches are undeniably causing issues for Londoners, some serious and significant, but also both are broadly part of a revolution for movement away from private motor vehicles and towards more and a wider range of people cycling more for ‘everyday’ journeys. 2. Rollout of cycle infrastructure It’s impossible to tell exactly for now how much the growth in cycling is down to dockless etc. and how much is down to TfL and London’s councils rollout of more cycling infrastructure (as well as the lag from that already delivered to people changing behaviour). But TfL’s release says that the ‘strategic cycle network’ of TfL-signed ‘Cycleways’ now stands at 431km, up from 90km in 2016. The role infrastructure plays anecdotally chimes with the growth visible for central, inner and outer London. Are you sure? I have read reports (many of them from TFL) that in the 2019/20 year they invested £147m, then £119m, £130m, £160m in the following years - I think this is why many quote the total figure at around £800m.

@malumbu yes we understand that but do you agree that wearing bright clothes and having working lights will help you to be seen. That, after all, was the whole point of the thread not whether a driver gets prosecuted if they rear-end a cyclist.

Absolutely right. But, as the previous pages show, wearing bright clothes and having lights (especially at night) will probably help you to be seen. And this, after all, was the whole point of the original post.