Earl Aelfheah

It does not state that you can drive in any bus lane when turning left. Your ‘research’ as usual, involves you reading stuff on Twitter and not understanding the context.

Overhill road is one way. Underhill is multidirectional and has buses turning in and out of it. It is also at a 90 degree angle from the main road and on the approach to where Lordship Lane splits (some cars going straight on, others moving over to turn right onto Sydenham Hill). They are entirely different layouts. TfL considers the circumstances of the specific road. Of course it’s irrelevant to what Southwark judge to be appropriate. Do you believe the turn is difficult to make without entering the bus lane?

OK let’s see where TfL says you can drive in any bus lane when turning left. I suspect you’re talking about the specific exception where there is a dotted white line and an arrow (indicating that you can move over to turn left). Where there is not one (as in most cases and this specific case), you absolutely cannot drive in the bus lane. …It does not surprise me that you are getting fines.

No it doesn’t. TfL does not allow drivers in bus lanes. I suspect he got caught in the bus lane

I have. The suggestion that to make that turn requires one has to enter the bus lane is not serious. People get into the bus lane to undercut queuing traffic and save time. Fine, but let’s not pretend it’s unavoidable

Oh, driving across a bus lane does not involving driving in a bus lane?

They’re different roads. One is almost a right angle to the main road the other is not. But it’s really irrelevant. The only question that matters is whether or not the turn is difficult without entering the bus lane. If it is, then you might have a point. If it’s not, then it’s all just noise and deflection and (I suspect), sour grapes at getting caught out, slipping up the inside of another vehicle.

@Rockets Are you really claiming that the intention of that bus lane is to raise money?

So do you not think it is not possible, or that it is even difficult, to make that turn without entering the bus lane?

No I don't. The side road is not at a right angle to the main road. It is very easy to make that turn and there is absolutely zero reason to cross into the bus lane. I haven't done that have I. No one has claimed that Southwark are issuing fines for driving close to a white line, but rather for crossing the white line (another way of saying, driving in in the bus lane). My guess is that people are being fined for moving into the lane before turning. Likely to squeeze pass cars on the left, make the turn sooner and save time.

Always the case that if you enter a bus lane you are liable for a fine. this is not specific to this bus lane. My understanding is that there are no definitive rules for the termination of a bus lane in advance of a left turn into a side street. Each site is considered on an individual basis dependent on the site-specific circumstances. But more importantly, Tfl guidance only applies to tfl managed roads. The relevant question is why you think it is not possible to turn comfortably into the side road without entering the bus lane? You think that TFL don't issue fines for similar 'infractions'? You think people can't see the bus lane? You think this is the key point? Does Tfl ignore people crossing into a bus lane if they only do it a little bit? I think this thread is likely just about Rockets getting a fine entirely avoidably and not taking it on the chin.

How? I have not agreed that at all. It is always that case that if you enter a bus lane you will get fined.

You're quite right! I thought you were talking about a different junction. Looking at the Overhill one, the bus lane does run much closer to the junction, although the turn is also easier / at less of an acute angle Still very difficult to see how one would need to, or could accidentally enter the bus lane when turning left. Not sure the photo above is Again, it sucks to get a fine, but not difficult to avoid.

The rules on bus lanes are very clear. If you don't drive in a bus lane, you won't get a fine. Really? Not what the data shows. If you are concerned with bus speeds on Lordship Lane, then suggest you lobby for extension of the bus lane operating hours. Notable that we currently have Rockets calling for people to drive in bus lanes without getting fined also.

The rules are that you don't drive in a bus lane. There is a sign stating that it's in operation at all times and that there are enforcement cameras. It is not difficult to turn left without entering the bus lane, there is plenty of room to turn. Unless you're trying to squeeze pass cars on the left to save time, there is not really any reason to enter the bus lane. It sucks to get a fine, but not difficult to avoid. ...also, are these cameras new? I believe there has always been enforcement cameras on this spot.

Yes, thoroughly dishonest ones. As anyone can see.

No. This is what happened. It followed a familiar pattern. You said some things that are demonstrably untrue: and… You then show yourself to be wrong, but bizarrely claim vindication 🤦‍♂️ So to summarise: You made a false claim (that Southwark's 'own guidance' is that LTNs should only be implemented in the North of the Borough) You then repeated it several more times, despite my politely suggesting that I did not think it was right You then quoted and posted links to documents that directly contradicted what you said, thereby proving your own mistake. When confronted with this, instead of just saying- oh yeh, perhaps I was mistaken, you doubled down. It's dishonest and embarrassing.

This is a thread about the CPZ

I’ve read the document. It does not say that LTNs should only be deployed in areas with high PTAL scores or cite the north of the borough as an example, as you have repeatedly claimed: The document you have linked to explicitly calls for a borough wide programme of LTNs, which is exactly the policy they have pursued. Dulwich is not the only LTN in Southwark, but one of many created across the borough. And again, this thread is about the CPZ, not the LTN.

You have again linked to a document from Southwark that calls for a “borough wide programme of low traffic neighbourhoods”.

This 👆🏾 is not true, and this 👇… Also posted by you and quoting council guidance, proves it; completely contradicting the previous post. It’s embarrassing that rather than simply correct a mistake, you double down and deflect. It’s a repeated pattern of deliberately spreading misinformation. It’s a shame admin continues to allow you to do this in pursuit of your monomaniacal obsession with an LTN introduced 4 years ago now.

Embarrassing

Where do the council say that either LTNs or CPZs should only be implemented in areas with a high PTAL, or only in the north of the borough? That’s a ‘clever’ response, when challenged on something you’ve repeatedly claimed that is demonstrably false. Well done.

I don't understand what your point is. You keep claiming that the council recommends LTNs only be implemented in areas with a high PTAL / and only in the north of the borough, but then quote them saying the opposite; that they recommend a borough wide programme of LTNs.

You’ve literally quoted them recommending a borough wide programme of LTNs