Bish Bash Bosh999

Kbabe01 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Too right bullying is not on. He prob didnt help > matters by posting sarcastic comments on an I > Support London Firefighters web page though. Just to put the record straight. Yes Kbabe01 is right it didn't help trying to get an alternative viewpoint over on the support site in question. I accept that was an inappropriate forum to express my views and as a consequence I have removed my profile from there. I am sure also the pm's were from contributors from that site and not this so please don't have a pop at each other. My mail address isn't viewable here but unfortunately it was there. It is of no consequence, however, since the address was created in order to register and is not my primary account but you can obviously understand my desire for anonymity since this site is watched I still have friends in the job who know my views and a family to consider. Kind Regards, BBB

laincoubert Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > > Not true.....I cannot run a query report in > anybody's diary. I can see the figures presented > by the LFB, I can speak to serving FFs and I can > take them both with a pinch of salt. > I assume, therefore, you are neither a crew or watch manager because they certainly can. If yours don't know how to they can ring up IMS (information Management Systems) who will be only too pleased to talk them through the process as it is only a couple of clicks away in the reports section of the diary. Hope that helps. ' Informnation is not power it is what you do with it that is.'

laincoubert Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I see no benefit to me at present for the changes, > and until these are presented to me in a genuine > and convincing way, I will continue to support the > FF struggle. > > I will be supporting all the future struggles of > police, NHS and other essential frontline sevices > in the firing line, the people in these careers > are essential to our welfare and directly affect > us all at some stage in our lives yet they do not > get rewarded with the many benefits that private > sector careers offer And you are quite free and right to have that viewpoint but all I would ask you to do is not just wait or look for arguments from politicians from either side (FBU officials are politicians too) just look around you and see what has been happening over the last few years. There are many Ff's and officers who are absolute dedicated and keen professionals but there are also those who have given management the ammunition for their business case. Two quick examples: Why does it take the threat of a BA review or even having to resort to stage 1 discipline to 'encourage' individuals to carry out a basic A test on a BA set at handover - the piece of kit that most would say is the one that they rely on for their own life as well as enabling them to carry out a prime function. Another instance, that baffles me: why would anyone, when required to carry out premises updates prior to moving records to an electronic data base so fire crews have immediate access to the most up to date information available on the appliance on arrival at an incident, not bother to leave the station and do an actual inspection. If they had they would have found out the premises shut down two years earlier. Needless to say a senior manager stumbled across that little gem. The list could go on but all I'm saying is that sometimes we are our own worst enemies and there are a few things we could have done better to give management less reasons to find more time for us to do the things we need to do properly.

Kbabe01 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > BBB being a retired FF will you be applying for a > job with Assetco? Just wondering. > > Santerme is your brother supporting the FF? > Again. Just wondering. Kbabe01 As it happens I will be looking at that option but not until this dispute is settled - It might not sit comfortably with you that I am looking at the bigger picture, arguing against this lunacy and breaking the the cardinal sin of not agreeing with everything just because I rode an appliance: or as I have been told in private messages "sh*****g on my x mates". I do have some principles, however, and will neither cross a picket line or ride an appliance for strike breaking purposes. We all have different ways of seeing things and that is what valuing diversity is really about. i.e. not necessarily agreeing with the other viewpoint but at least letting that viewpoint be expressed with a little respect. Santerme Thanks for your input by the way. You just reminded me of something else for those that live in East Dulwich. Some local info for them. http://www.london-fire.gov.uk/Documents/Lewisham0912.pdf http://www.london-fire.gov.uk/Documents/Southwark0912.pdf

For those of you that are interested please find links to publicly available documents that may fill in some of the blank space for you. The first two FEP documents, on the subject of Working Patterns for Operational Staff, are reports submitted to meetings of the authority covering such things as the business case for new working patterns and the associated research that supported it e.g. "The LFB has been approached by Carers UK which is bidding for funds to work with a few organisations to develop a support network for carers....if successful the LFB will have a cutting edge support network system both internal and external for our members of staff that are carers." The last one is the Fourth London Safety Plan. Mentioned in the preceding reports, it presents the Authority's vision and plans over the coming years to "Make London a Safer City" http://www.london-fire.gov.uk/Documents/FEP1422.pdf FEP1422.pdf http://www.london-fire.gov.uk/Documents/FEP1491.pdf FEP1491.pdf http://www.london-fire.gov.uk/Documents/LSP4.pdf LSP4.pdf Enjoy the read! P.S. Hope you don't see this as clap trap Maureen

laincoubert Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > We will squeeze a bit more out of them that way.... Yes that is probably right. But that is what increasing efficiency means: Not trying to sound condescending here. Let's fce it if we always do the same things we will always get the same results. > Actually seriously, ffs are still going to sleep > on duty at night at every opportunity they get, > good luck to them. JThey will sleep just like any > night worker such as nurses, security personal, > doctors, and their control officers too who take > turns to sleep although that is done on a strict > rota basis. I think you have summed up why this is such a ridiculous situation. I was in the job when there were controls at Wembley Stratford and Croydon and even then control staff used to take rota turns to get a bit of kip but for make ups. It was unofficial: management knew it went on but turned a blind eye. They know it goes on now and will in the future: let's face it they too were fire-fighters once. There is provision in the new working routines for an 'adequate rest period' on nights. Although lets be real here as, imo, the politicians wanted the beds to go. Although the replacement recliners are not the same how could any politician justify an argument to retain beds in a workplace especially when thy would have to court public opinion similar to that expressed on this forum. I refer you back to your comment above that intimates Ff's will still sleep on nights. Management know this but also know not a lot gets done after 8 once the yard gates are shut (remember they were Ff's once), they just want more productive time available during the day. And lets face it if you had spoken to crew and watch managers a while back they would have been moaning they haven't got enough time in the day and spend most of it in he office in front of the computer: I doubt they will be moaning about it much now. And to close it doesn't actually matter which shift pattern is adopted as there will always be those that will oppose it: as they say you can't please all of the people etc etc...

Marmora Man Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- >.....it seems to be the same with the > Fire Service, which should have an advantage as > all its senior officers are drawn from its ranks, > rather than direct entry, and have practical > experience that they share with everyone else. Poachers turned gamekeepers. Read into that what you wish. :-)

laincoubert Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Firstly busiest for who? The FF's I know, and I > have spoken to several now, swear blind (i do not > know whether statistics are availabale or could be > trusted depending upon their source) that they are > no more likely to pick up a call around these > times than at any other time...... I'll refer you back to my earlier post. You can obtain precise figures by running a report from your station diary: it will even present it a a graph if you wish. Oh! and of course there are other programs such a imapping, although I think that has been updated since the introduction of the electronic fire reporting process (instead of the old paper FDR1). Which gives you an indication of the source of this data - yours and every other fire station in London linked to the National Incident Recording System .

laincoubert Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Is everyone missing my point. The management > haven't given one single good reason TO SIGN the > new contracts...... Not quite true Iain. Don't you remember management provided detailed explanations, even in power point format, for the change in start and finish time. The one showed the increased availability of hours for productive work and, oh, that graph that showed the call peak around the current change of shift time when appliances are more likely to be off the run. You could always run a report query in your station diary to see your call rate graph. > Who in their right mind would sign > a contract which didn't benefit anyone at all........ Maybe the 21% that didn't vote in the ballot or the 21% that did vote but against the action. Or maybe those who are leaving the FBU as a result of this dire situation. > By the way the new > contract will double the number of evenings you > work and not benefit anyone at all........ What about the two evenings gained from the later night shift start time?

Kbabe01 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > EXAMPLE EXAMPLE EXAMPLE > > If my house is on fire in dulwich at 2am in the > morning and me and my family are trapped, id > rather not wait for a fire crew to drive from > chelsea thanks. Not when theres a perfectly good > station at peckham or forest hill. Thats what > will happen tho. I know this is the East Dulwich Forum but why Peckham and Forest Hill as the examples? Maybe Barbican or Biggin Hill might have been better examples. If, and I emphasise if, closures were being discussed by the Brigade now, it would be these type of stations being looked at for night time closures. Lets face it Barbican as a district virtually shuts once the office workers go home and Biggin Hill would have been part retained by now if enough volunteers had been forthcoming a few years back after all.

Posted by: Moflo October 15, 03:45PM Moflo Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > As a serving FF in London, this strike is the last > resort and none of us, I repeat NONE of us want to > strike, we have been forced to take this measure > as we have been bullied and harassed into this by > our boss..... Posted by: Moflo Yesterday, 10:37PM Moflo Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I am the mother of a firefighter and see the > effects on him when he has had a bad shout, I > could go in detail but won't...... Mmm!

Moflo Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Some do have second jobs, because they > cannot afford the cost of living in London on > their wage. Some do not have second jobs. Some > nurses have second jobs, some paramedics have > second jobs. In this day and age needs must. The > average wage for a fire fighter is far below the > national avereage Not quite true is it Moflo ? Average full-time weekly earnings in London - ?627 or ?32604 pa (National Statistics 2009 Annual Survey of Hours and Earnings) Salary of competent Ff (achieved after completing their development record between 6 to 18 mths from training - ?28199 + London weighting ?4959 equates to ?33158 pa Needless to say the national average is below that of London. And don't get me on to the subject of the level of training undertaken at stations as I have seen a decontamination dam left standing in a yard being used for 'training' throughout the summer.

Chick Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Does that make you Gimli, Son of Gloin? Oh no definitely of this earth.

Kbabe01 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Bish Bash Bosh you have commented on the i support > london firefighters facebook page and on your > profile it says your employer is LFB? Is this > true? Not quite true will update my profile now as I stare at my axe on my mantle piece.

Dougal Mulldoon Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > > Now the union can, and must, beat them once and > for all. And to do that the firefighters will need > as much support and solidarity as we can possibly > deliver. > Socialist Worker talk. The strikers do not have my > support with this kiind of talk. Put together a > rational argument as to why the move from 9; 9; > 15; 15; hour shifts to 12; 12; 12;12 hour shifts > is dangerous, costly, illogical or something else > and I might listen and might support you but not > before > > Good luck to the fire fighters. Nice piece Dougal The line that, for me, sums up the FBU's push for a strike is the quote "Now the union can, and must, beat them once and for all." I still believe that they spurred the workforce to put their heads above the parapet back in 2003 with the 30K strike and got their fingers burned (excuse the pun). They got the money but, imo, never recovered from the fact that the bosses wanted something in return i.e. a full days work for a full days pay.

Funny how the Brigade can run with reduced appliance cover during strategic resource and when they come off the run due to personnel booking late or sick. Also funny how those sicknesses levels suddenly reduce on PH days.

Fuscia's argument does not hold water with me either for two main reasons. I know how many carry on part time work on days off even, shock horror, in between nights; a practice not officially allowed. How do you think that impacts on a Ff's operational effectiveness; not exactly family friendly either. The FBU's proposals also seem to contradict this argument. Namely producing a detailed business case for an 8/16 shift split and even proposing to LFEPA 24 hr shift patterns. I am lead to believe that they represent the wishes of their membership - maybe they haven't friendly families. Propaganda is a fish that can swim up or down stream.