WorkingMummy

I guess it's just a different approach, Pickle. I too grew up in a very traditional home. I'm not knocking that. I simply think, it's important to consider these things and valuable to teach children to question everything, especially this topic where (judging by turn out at world book day locally to us) the prevailing trend is so strong. Personally, I wouldn't leave a junk morality tale (like Cinderella) to pass without some comment/question from me. It's not as if the battle for full female emancipation is over out there in the big wide world. And speaking from my own experience, the explicit (in my case, religious) message I received as a child that submission = virtue certainly made it more difficult for me to navigate relationships for a good decade of my early adult life. Not at all saying that's what you are doing. Just saying. This stuff matters.

midivydale Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Makeup & Heels on, hope that doesnt affect my > credibility :) It does not! I remember what environment you work in, mivydale. High heels and lipstick "codes" in the city as "I am together" - much like a man's expensive suit. Smart choice, I'd say. This hardly makes you like sell-out Cinderella!!

Pickle Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Taking it one step further, I take it there are a > number of working mums posting on this thread. > Can I assume you don't wear makeup or high heeled > shoes to work? Don't wear high heels (reminds me of Chinese foot binding, yes, but more to the point, i stand all day in court, and they f'in kill.) Wear tinted moisturiser, mascara and a little lipstick. I read the Beauty Myth. Wolf makes a good case. But seriously, my make up takes less time than my husband takes to shave. Make up does not disqualify me from critiquing the exposure of young girls to masochistic "heroines" or morality tales that preach submission = virtue. :-)

midivydale Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I share this concern.... > Have you read Pippi Longstocking to her? Pippi is > a fellow Swede who lives on her own as her mummy > is in heaven and her daddy is a pirate on the > seven seas. She is independent, kind, generous and > a very very loyal friend. > Also - she is strong enough to carry a horse:) > > > By the way working mummy - I am back at work now > and everything that you predicted in one of your > posts in my thread has come true...You clearly > know your stuff So happy for you!!! I will look at those books, thank you!

Pickle Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > At the risk of sounding callous, I can't help > thinking there is an awful lot of over thinking > going on here. > > They are kids. Kids will play with whatever takes > their fancy in that particular 5 minutes of their > day. When my son chooses to play with a doll he > is not making a conscious decision to break down > male gender stereotypes, when my daughter plays > with trucks/mud/bugs she's not sticking two > fingers up at the world and celebrating her > feminist beliefs. > > As a parent, I'm confident that reading Cinderella > to my daughter is not going to result in her > getting into a relationship when she's older where > she is controlled and does what she's told at all > times. > > Let them be children. Pickle, like I say, I think you are right in your approach: don't censor/ban, but allow exposure and discuss instead. I started this thread unsure, but you and others have convinced me. But I'm going to defend myself against the charge of over thinking. Fairy tales, like most mythology, self-present as morality tales. And I think it's important to consider the morality which they preach, in order to decide how to approach that message with your kids. We are here as parents to guide. And these stories are (by design) powerful. Love to know from you and others how to talk to children about this without getting dogmatic. I guess, just start a conversation? Ask the questions? Trust them to get to the right answers for themselves in time?

verds Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I'm with you on this, Working Mummy. > > ... I learned my feminist ways from my > mum more than from culture so I do have some hope > for them. > > But now she wants a Barbie and that opens up a > whole can of worms for me. I would not buy a Barbie. But my mother-in-law dished a couple out to my girls, against our wishes. (Grr) Picking up on what you say about learning from your mother's example, I did hear my (heathily wilful!) 2 year old saying to her Barbie in bed one night last week (I was trying to get her to sleep): "No Barbie, you can't wear those pink shoes because you are going to court. You have to wear black in court." I have never, in fact, spoken against pink (and I wear pink). My 2yo had just picked up the "going to court" thing from seeing me go off to work (I'm a lawyer). I don't think this makes the Barbie harmless. But perhaps supports what you and others are saying about the best ways to try to meet the Barbie challenge????

ClaireClaire Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Hello, > > .... > > Sorry, I do have a lot more to say about all this > but I am supposed to be working! Will drop back in > when I have some time to add more. > Looking forward to reading what you have to say Claire. WM

Chief Jeff Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Isn't it a lesson to children that you should > always do what your parents tell you, whether you > like it or not? That's a good lesson! > > But, anyway, what would happen if she did try to > resist? Given that this is a story set in 'the > olden days', what options would she have if she > refused to submit and left the house? Sorry, I replied to the first para immediately after your post, Chief Jeff. As to what would happen if she ran away, we don't know. In fact, we don't know if she would even need to - because, like a good little girl, she does zero, nothing, short of running away, as a first measure. But if she ran away (possible, being old enough to marry) she'd probably be ok. She was a proven good worker at least. But whatever, she would be free. The trade between staying in a place of fear in order to buy yourself security (and in that, sweetly loving and obeying someone you fear) is the essence of sado-masochism. Not good. Great piece of propaganda though, to feed to the impoverished, germanic girls, whose free labour was an economic necessity, I've no doubt. Hope to teach my daughters to see it like that (one day).

You must obey the adults around you, no matter what they say, and ignore your own instincts, and if you do that, you will be worthy, is PRECISELY what makes child abusers so powerful. I'm not saying people who read Cinderella to their kids are abusing them. (I read it to mine last night.) I'm just saying, submission = virtue is not a good message, but a bad one. It's a dark tale. This is why I try (it's hard) to celebrate my kids' willfullness. Pain in the arse a lot of the time. But no bad thing in the long run.

Chief Jeff Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Interesting thread! I'd never really thought about > the Cinderella story in this light before. > > I think, though, that Cinderella isn't entirely > passive and without backbone - does she not > display some self-confidence and courage in order > to go through with the fairy godmother's plan and > go to the ball? And, assuming that she has no > other family to go to, maybe her subservience is a > sign of intelligence - perhaps it's the best way, > until she's old enough to leave home, of dealing > with the stepsisters' bullying. I think that what Etta166 and Pickle are saying about the best approach to this, is probably right, on reflection. But no, can't see Cinderella's backbone. She is not in physical chains, and she doesn't even try to resist. Most narratives (inc the Disney film) are explicit that this is an expression of her virtue. This is a wicked thing to teach kids. A courageous thing to do would be to storm the ball in rags and demand justice for domestic slaves. (Or even, just say no to her step-mother.) To go to a ball protected by the disguise of a supernatural spell (so that even your family cannot recognise you) and run away before risking discovery - not so brave. In the end, Cinderella's "salvation" is to swap the mastery of her step-mother for the mastery of the prince. Which may be more pleasant (we are not told what would happen if she ever resisted him). But he is still another master: certainly she is not consulted as to her fate, like an equal.

Etta166, maybe you are right about a ban. Children need to learn these stories if they are to be literate in the widest sense. Critique is probably the best approach? (Having said that, inspired by ClaireClaire, I just chucked out the tackiest pinky "princesses" book we have on our shelves.) My husband bought a huge, German tome of fairytales back from Switzerland (he is swiss) last year. The stories in the original german forms are mostly very obviously dark, which makes the critique side of things easier to get off the ground. If you are up against a picture of Cinderella in a sparkling pink ball gown, forget critique. Waste of breath. But still, I find the Cinderella story remains difficult and you never get away from one particular sinister message it contains, which is "good" (or rather, sweet) people are beautiful, bad people are of course ugly.

TE44 wrote > > Magic has different neanings to everyone, > I associate it with freedom of choice,, > intuition, > Taking control of you own life. I like the ideas of freedom and personal responsibility too! I'm not sure I understand all you say about nature, but for what it's worth, the magic/wonder of the natural world (as discovered by scientific observation) is all I need in that department. I wasn't really trying to define "magic" as such. I was just picking up on Worker's sentiment that she wouldn't want fairy tales to lose their "magic". I guess I should say, I wish I could take away these stories' "power" over my kids. But feel that I can't: there's something there which is bigger than me. On the magic point, I was saying, in effect, just because something is bewitching, doesn't make it good. It might make it very, very bad. In this tale of sadism and masochism, I think the "magic" of the story should be resisted. Funny thing is (as I have posted elsewhere at length) my girls are quite feisty. It is utterly depressing to see that, despite all that, they fall for this b/s, and idolise Cinderella so fanatically.

Funny you should say that. My husband recently returned from his mother with parcels (wrapped ) for our girls. Barbies! For pre-schoolers! We were both livid. We have been very clear about this. Now looking for opportunity to lose them. When we were looking at schools for our eldest we looked at one top local girls school (can't really hide the id). I was so depressed to see photos of their annual book day, with all the little girls dressed up as .... Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty, Snow White. Can they not change the rules a little, to get the girls to think outside that particular box? We crossed that school off our list. Why pay to submerge your daughter in the same crappy passive-submissive hero worship she can get for free elsewhere?

theasidonio Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Just for fun.... > > > http://www.cracked.com/article_16905_7-classic-dis > ney-movies-that-taught-us-terrible-lessons.html Liked!

Yes, a long one perhaps. A lot to unpack. The story is magical, granted. But I don't think it is cold. It is dark, but not cold. It is because of the magic (which imo goes a lot deeper than disneys glittering presentation) that fairytales are not just cartoons. If the story were to lose its magic, then I wouldn't mind reading it to my children. (I think the magic is something about our unattractive, but hard-wired tendency, on occasions, to opt for freedom from responsibility at the cost of freedom full stop. Something about being beguiled, about making someone else responsible for our welfare. Cinderella takes zero responsibility for herself, submits to evil as a result and is "rewarded" by the "love" of the smiling prince.)

Worker Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I have to say that is not the plot synopsis or > impression that springs to my mind. I had it that > the King arranged a ball, Cinderella danced with > PC and they fell in love, then she had to run > before the spell was broken (rather than running > away from PC). > > Cinderella "fell in love" with him. Of course she did. He was the first person to smile at her for years and years. He was also, however, a master figure, not a peer. And by marrying her the day after the day after the ball, he took awful advantage of that. It's text book masochism. I find it a very creepy portrayal of love.

Well, it's a weight off to at least hear there are like minded people on this one. I don't allow live Tv for exactly the reason you identify, ClaireClaire. The kids (infrequently) watch on demand instead. It leaves me with Charlie and Lola, that's about it. These fairy tales are rare in that they do feature females prominently. But not in a good way. To my mind, the only virtue Cinderella has (I do not equate sweetness towards evil as a virtue) is her beauty. There's no way I want my girls thinking like that. However, I am trying to raise free thinkers, rather than mini-mes, so what do you think, ClaireClaire? Ban these stories, or simply criticise them? (I tried this last night. Told my daughters I thought Cinderella would be more sensible, and admirable, if she said, "Scrub your own floors!" But, they disagreed. Which I would welcome if I thought it was truly a free thought, and not that they had bought the sugar coated falsehood of this piece of S&M propaganda.) Thanks for the book tips. Another trip to amazon for me...

Gordon is a Moron - Jilted John

PS, in the classic Disney film, the King imposes his will on the Grand Duke on pain of death, by the sword.

Where is he not? He is from a dynasty who gets to command all virgin women to attend the palace inmediately (that very night) so that he can have his pick of them for his wife. He takes his pick. She runs away. He issues a royal proclamation that she will be found and that he WILL marry her.

I look ahead at friends' older children, and I wonder when the end will come. I don't have a problem with magic and make believe - not at all. And I understand where you are coming from Shaunag. My mum (whose advice I call on very frequently) would say something very similar. But it is exactly what you like about the story that I dislike. I think to call Cinderella timid or shy doesn't really cover it. She is abused. And what the story pushes forward as her "goodness" is actually her passivity and submission to that abuse - her sweetness in the face of evil. Kindness is good, when directed wisely. Passivity and submission to emotional and physical tranny, not so good. And what you see/the story pushes as a reward, I see as the swapping of one, tyrannical totalitarian dictator (step-mother) for another (ostensibly) more benevolent one (prince charming). (In fact, the story ends before we find out if he is or isn't a kind master. All we know is he is the agent, she is passive, and they marry immediately, without any reference to her will or options.) I am concerned about the strength this story carries and I'm not sure what to do. My girls have a broad mix of stories available to them - we read a lot of Dahl for example. But nothing captures their imagination like this one. The strength of the Disney image is also extraordinary. A birthday present from a friend last year was a little micro bendy plastic version of disney's Cinderella, which is just the perfect size to carry around in their little hands. It's like a little idol to them. There is nothing else so captivating to them in their toy box.

Living in America - James Brown

My daughters came home from the library today with another stack of princess books. My girls are 4 and 2. They used to be totally disinterested in pink, passive "heroine" stories, and still their tastes are pretty catholic. But it's an interest which is growing very rapidly. I'm not really comfortable with this. Here's (partly) why: http://m.voices.yahoo.com/cinderella-fairytale-why-its-bad-little-girls-630658.html Anyone else concerned?

I pay just over ?1700 net per month for my live-in. She works 50 hours per week. I think you can pay less than this if you like but she has 20 years experience and is a sticker (her longest job lasted about 8 years). And I have three pre-schoolers whom she has sole-charge of for those 50 hours. I can't remember what that is gross, but I pay about (I think) ?2500 to the tax man every quarter.

Time After Time - Cyndi Lauper