Serena2012

Sally is right. This evening?s complete and utter traffic chaos which I observed on the nursery run between 5.40 and 6.40 consisted of traffic queuing all the way from the junction of Townley/ EDG down Calton to the junction of Woodwarde and then down Woodwarde; traffic at a complete standstill going towards the EDG/ Red Post Hill/ Village Way junction through Dulwich Village; traffic going Southbound down EDG queuing all the way from the junction of Townley beyond Charter ED and the Medical Centre; huge queues on Burbage at the junction of Turney Road; Turney much busier than usual. This is yet another example of why these closures are so ill thought through. The minute one of the few remaining significant open roads goes down, in this case, the South Circular at Dulwich Common, chaos reigns supreme. Exactly the same thing happened a month ago when Denmark Hill was closed. However, I can happily report that my stretch of EDG is actually quieter than it has been since early September this evening (presumably because all the vehicles that usually idle outside are stuck in traffic elsewhere), so perhaps to take a leaf out of the book of some of the other commentators on this thread, I should be lobbying Southwark to permanently close Dulwich Common!!!

James - Just to add in the context of your social justice analysis, the attached list of the most expensive streets in each borough makes it clear that three of the five most expensive streets in Southwark (Court Lane Gardens; Burbage Road and Dulwich Village) will ultimately stand to benefit once Phase 3 is implemented in Dulwich Village. Of these, only one (Dulwich Village) houses a school, hospital or nursery, yet many of the roads bearing the brunt of these schemes (including EDG, Half Moon Lane, Grove Vale and Lordship Lane) house schools (and in the case of EDG, a nursery and health centre to boot). https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.mylondon.news/news/property/london-house-prices-full-list-19067236.amp

James - I am encouraged by your response, with one caveat, which is that as a resident of East Dulwich Grove, I am incredibly concerned about any proposals to chase the displacement further by closing additional side streets, if that is indeed the plan in the context of Matham Grove and Zenoria/ Oxonian. Our home currently experiences 6-8 hours of queuing traffic outside it Monday - Saturday in circumstances where we experienced none before the initial closures in Dulwich Village and on Melbourne Grove in late June. This became exponentially worse once Melbourne North, Elsie, Tintagel and Derwent were closed in early September, particularly late in the evenings and on weekends. It feels particularly galling that while the residents of these streets (including Elsie Road, which is one of the most expensive streets in the entirety of SE22, and almost certainly the most affluent in the ward), get the benefit of no through traffic and a tranquil home environment, my young family and I have to cope with the extra traffic generated by those very same residents, their tradesmen; their nannies; their gardeners; their deliveries in circumstances where this did not happen previously. The situation is becoming intolerable. We no longer sit in our front room as the noise pollution is so great. I genuinely don?t understand how you can sanction further road closures in these circumstances. I am wholly supportive of school streets, but what is happening here is hugely disproportionate, and is simply shifting the burden of pollution. The whole scheme needs a rethink, rather than tweaking around the edges. Edited to add: I am encouraged by your plan to protect nurseries, schools and hospitals. It goes without saying however that if reducing air pollution in schools is the goal, closing roads such as Melbourne North and Tintagel Crescent while displacing all the traffic onto Grove Vale and EDG and therefore creating queues of idling traffic sitting outside schools in circumstances where this did not happen previously (which is the current status quo) is highly unlikely to achieve that aim. I note in particular that the entry point for years 10 and 11 at Charter ED is from EDG, which means that (thanks largely no doubt to the closures in Dulwich Village), hundreds of schoolchildren are now walking to their school gates on a much more polluted and congested road than hitherto. This is different to safe travel to school/ discouraging parents from driving which can be achieved by less drastic school streets, operative Monday-Friday, a maximum of 39 weeks a year during peak drop off and pick up hours.

RahRah: My own personal experience is that children have always walked to school along Calton Avenue and Melbourne Grove. In fact, wasn?t one of Southwark?s stats in one of their propaganda pieces relating to OHS based on the number of schoolchildren using the DV junction via active travel every day? I?m a big fan of school streets, and definitely think the number of parents dropping off by car at Goose Green has reduced due to the school street on Elsie which is a good thing. What I am however seeing is huge volumes of children (including the entirety of years 10 and 11 at Charter ED whose entry point to school is from EDG) walking along a much more heavily congested EDG than ever before. I?ve also seen a significant increase in breaches of the Highway Code on EDG, including an increase in lone adult cyclists on the pavement. Historically, with children at nurseries in DV and Herne Hill, we would always hop on the 42/37 bus to take us to the junction of Townley if we were running late on the nursery run, as this would invariably shave 5-10 minutes off our journeys. Now, I have yet to have a morning where I haven?t beaten every 37 and 42 bus that had passed me on the walk between the LL junction and Townley along EDG as the road going South is bumper to bumper every morning. The changes simply aren?t working here. Some of them need to be removed entirely and others converted to school streets.

Is this really what Southwark intended in the middle of a pandemic? Why are all these changes so ill-thought through?

Another resounding success for the Streetspace initiative? Is anyone else getting the impression that Southwark has taken money awarded as a result of the first wave of Covid-19 and used it in a way that creates another health crisis right on our doorstep? From pedestrianising Rye Lane, thereby making scenes like this a possibility to causing huge volumes of congestion (and therefore air pollution) on roads on which thousands of children are educated.

RahRah: Conscious that you will never agree with me on this topic. Like many others, what I want to see is a carefully modelled, borough wide, considered approach to air pollution, as opposed to the current square peg, round hole approach which significantly benefits some of the borough and the UK?s most affluent streets to the significant detriment of some of its poorest citizens, as well as thousands of schoolchildren. I?m also concerned about the impact on local trade as Lordship Lane has become far less pleasant now that traffic sits on its shopping area bumper to bumper for much of the day. Other shopping areas, such as Melbourne North are also far more difficult to get to than hitherto. The research on the impact of fine particulate air pollution and Covid-19 whilst in its infancy makes it very clear that even very small increases in fine particulate pollution results in a significant increase in morbidity and mortality in the context of Covid-19. My section of EDG is seeing 6-8 hours of idling traffic Monday-Saturday in circumstances where it encountered none previously. It doesn?t take a rocket scientist to work out that my chances of being hospitalised and dying in the context of Covid-19 has just skyrocketed thanks to Southwark. This goes for all the residents of this street. Don?t even get me started on the life long negative consequences of exposure to air pollution. My objection has nothing to do with maintaining the status quo (I don?t even drive), and everything to do with pointing out to the council that their current ill-thought through plans are fundamentally flawed; have made the EDG/ Lordship Lane junction more of a death trap than ever before; and are in fact increasing rather than reducing pollution as congestion on our roads is much greater than it ever was before. I found this list of the top 5 most affluent streets in each borough quite interesting. It contains Court Lane Gardens, Burbage Road and Dulwich Village (all of which will ultimately benefit from Southwark?s meddling once phase 3 is introduced): https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.mylondon.news/news/property/london-house-prices-full-list-19067236.amp

Alice - It is, but if you were to apply the Elsie Road school street logic (whereby the entry and exit from Goose Green is on Tintagel Crescent), to Harris then you would put a gate keeper on Wheatley as well. Ultimately, the current status quo which involves planters and the closure of a number of very affluent streets which don?t even have schools on them (and where student footfall is almost invariably lower than on EDG) definitely isn?t working, as it is causing huge volumes of congestion and therefore increased air pollution on the roads that house the majority of the area?s schools; whilst also (almost invariably) slowing down buses and emergency vehicles. Whilst we await the ULEZ, I suspect school streets which discourage driving to school, and make it safer for children to cross the road in the vicinity of their schools are a good middle ground.

first mate Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Yes, the planters have had a major, negative > impact on traffic on main routes and if this is > now also hindering emergency services that is very > worrying. Agreed. I would also be very keen to understand the knock on impact on bus travel times. Presumably this is something that TFL monitor. Link to the petition on Southwark?s website: http://moderngov.southwark.gov.uk/mgEPetitionDisplay.aspx?id=500000049

The petition asking Southwark to reverse the closures in Dulwich Village and East Dulwich now has over 500 signatures. Linking again http://moderngov.southwark.gov.uk/mgEPetitionDisplay.aspx?id=500000049 I?m with FairTgirl, in that school streets are to be supported. Arguably, this should include Melbourne North and Whateley Road (in the case of Whateley, they could have a gate keeper similar to Elsie Road, which would allow buses through). However the closures in their current state are not proportionate, and seem to benefit certain streets, whilst causing significantly increased levels of pollution on others. This is not equitable, nor is it improving air quality.

This is a link to the change.org petition started by one of the businesses on Melbourne Grove: https://www.change.org/p/helen-hayes-help-us-to-stop-the-road-closures-in-east-dulwich?utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=custom_url&recruited_by_id=b9ef0770-e198-11ea-a32a-a7c05e9e4c3f

One Dulwich is campaigning for a more equitable approach: https://www.onedulwich.uk/ This is the Southwark Streetspace Comments page. This is where the council is asking those (both in favour and against) to comment: https://eastdulwichstreetspace.commonplace.is/ It might also be worth writing to the following councillors: [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected]

Rockets Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I am shocked at how bad the traffic is on Lordship > Lane right now - it's scary how bad things have > got so quickly following the implementation of the > closures - it's obvious the EDG/LL junction and > Goose Green roundabout cannot handle the numbers > of extra cars being forced through them. > > The problem is the council doesn't care about > Lordship Lane, in fact I think a lot of them > actually despise it. Bus diversions are still operative down EDG even though Dog Kennel Hill has reopened, whilst they work on the wall. EDG has been bumper to bumper from the junction of LL to Townley going South practically all day. I?ve walked it four times (whilst doing the nursery run), and it was utterly hideous. So many schoolchildren, particularly as years 10 and 11 of Charter now enter from EDG and so many noxious fumes. This is a prime example of how ill thought through these closures are. There will be multiple times a year when one of the A roads in the area is closed for one reason or another. The closure of all viable alternatives other than roads that are already beyond capacity is beyond idiotic. Southwark have taken money allocated as a result of one public health crisis and created another public health crisis right on their doorstep. You honestly couldn?t make this stuff up. The number of flagrant breaches of the Highway Code I witnessed on EDG today were also through the roof. Approximately 10 adult cyclists (unaccompanied by minors), cycling on the pavement. A three point turn by a frustrated driver to turn around in the middle of a traffic jam, whilst a bus hurtled towards him; a lorry reversing down the road. The list goes on.

Northernmonkey to address your comments: 1. I do not live at the junction of two A roads, in fact, our house is quite a distance from the junction, and the only reason we are currently experiencing idling traffic is because the volume of traffic caused by the closures elsewhere is overwhelming for this stretch of road. In case you hadn?t noticed, Melbourne Grove, Derwent and Elsie also have junctions with two A roads. All these closures have done is to take the problems previously experienced at some of those junctions, particularly the Melbourne/ EDG junction and shoved it down the road, where the infrastructure cannot cope. There is a reason buses did not go down this section of EDG historically and went down Melbourne instead, and that is because this stretch of road is very very narrow. 2. What needs to happen therefore is that rather than bunging planters in and hoping for the best, which clearly isn?t working, and is inevitably significantly increasing air pollution, there should be a detailed consideration of all the options. This includes school streets alone, and one way streets. Expecting a narrow stretch of EDG to cope with all the additional traffic is naive, and quite frankly dangerous.

As a resident of EDG, I strongly refute the claim that traffic volume on the Northern section of EDG is lower than normal at school drop off and pick up. This is simply not the case. Moreover, this section of road is currently being subjected to idling traffic at lunchtime; and into evening in circumstances where this did not happen previously. Both Saturdays since the most recent swathe of road closures were implemented have seen 9 hours of idling traffic outside our home between 10am and 7pm. Put simply it is so much worse than it was previously. I agree with the notion that this stretch of road is too narrow for all the traffic on it, and have personally seen buses get stuck. The fundamental issue is that the junction of Lordship Lane and EDG, as well as the Goose Green roundabout cannot cope with the volume of traffic they are currently experiencing, and this (whilst eminently predictable) is leading to significant tailbacks. The narrowness of the road, and the fact that two sizeable vehicles cannot pass each other without one stopping to let the other go past is not helping. Whilst the recent closures of Melbourne North et al has made the problem exponentially worse, the closure of Melbourne South and the roads in the Village have also had a significant knock on impact. Delivery drivers parking on this section of road is simply the tip of the iceberg. Banning them completely is likely to be impractical (there will invariably be furniture deliveries; builders merchants; ambulances etc where parking anywhere other than immediately outside a residential property is impractical, and as others have commented, the lack of suitable delivery spots on the final stretch of Lordship Lane leading up to Grove Vale is also an issue), and whilst it is no doubt something the council should look into, the more fundamental need is an urgent review of the Lordship Lane/ EDG junction which is a fatal accident waiting to happen. Until this is fixed, my own view is that all the roads in the vicinity ought to be reopened. It is a ticking timebomb otherwise. northernmonkey Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Whilst I agree that for the first couple of days > the traffic on East Dulwich Grove was horrible, > and outside the normal levels for that road, the > picture being painted by the poster above simply > isn?t true of the days since, in fact around > school times the traffic has been lower than > normal. > > It is entirely possible that living right up next > to the junction the above poster has a different > impression but at that stretch, one car unloading > for example has a huge impact. For an example see > below: > > https://twitter.com/edstnstreets/status/1304771248 > 342302720?s=12

Thank you. The PM2.5 being monitored on our air quality monitor has shot up drastically over the last hour and I was wondering why.

stecoward101 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Not sure why you sarcastic remark is needed. I > believe caring for the welfare of children walking > to school is more important that access to shops > both ways. Please remember that the shops are > still accessible to cars if they travel the other > way. > > I live, work and volunteer in this community so > maybe you should take your sarcasm and use it > where it works. I am genuinely confused by your comment about children walking to school. Granted, the closure of Melbourne is great for those Charter ED kids who access from Jarvis Road. BUT what about the thousands of other children educated at Alleyn?s; JAGS; Harris ED; Goose Green; Judith Kerr; DVIS, who are now suffering far worse air quality and attending schools on far busier roads than they were hitherto. Most of these, presumably also have to walk/ intersect with busier roads in order to get to school. I don?t know much about Charter ED?s Covid measures, but understand anecdotally that some of their students are now being asked to enter via EDG, and not Jarvis Road, so if this is correct, closing Melbourne North doesn?t even help all of Charter ED?s children, let alone any others. Personally, I have no objection to Melbourne North becoming a school street. However its closure 24/7 is hugely disproportionate.

creditwheredue Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Serena2012 Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > Ridiculous queues on EDG yet again this > morning. > > They were all the way down to the hospital at > > 9.20am. How is this acceptable? > > I left my house to walk to the station at that > time yesterday and couldn?t believe how empty EDG, > I crossed without breaking stride. Credit - How fortunate you were. However, please don?t patronise those of us who are living this experience by claiming things aren?t really that bad. The reality is that before Southwark started closing roads at the end of June, the Northern section of EDG did not have an issue with idling traffic. It now does, for hours on end. The fact that you managed to cross EDG without breaking stride is of little consolation to me and my young children, who will no doubt have to deal with the potentially life long consequences of significantly worse air quality. If you don?t believe me, take a look at the East Dulwich street space page. I am evidently not the only one who has noticed how much worse congestion on this road has become.

Ridiculous queues on EDG yet again this morning. They were all the way down to the hospital at 9.20am. How is this acceptable?

alice Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > So where?s the bus lane on EDG? EDG is so narrow in places that two sizeable vehicles cannot pass each other without one stopping to let the other go by. I can only assume that this is why, until about 15 years ago, the bus route went down Melbourne Grove and not EDG. No room for a bus lane therefore. It is against this backdrop that Southwark decided it was VERY sensible to displace huge volumes of traffic onto this road. I wonder whether they could squeeze in a bus lane down Court Lane however?!?!

I just took a short stroll to observe the road blocks. It seems the middle planter has had to come out on all 4 roads, only to be replaced by removable plastic barriers. I can only imagine that this is because some bright spark suddenly realised that blocking off all access between Grove Vale and EDG other than the Goose Green roundabout, thereby significantly increasing emergency vehicle response time to all roads branching off EDG might be slightly idiotic. It just goes to show how ill thought through these closures have been. Even as things stands, faffing around with plastic barriers will invariably lose valuable, potentially life saving minutes. These closures are hugely disproportionate in circumstances where school streets would be a far better compromise. Put simply, they need to go.

rollflick Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > First Monday 8am after filters installed, so > before traffic has settled down and also the > return of schools. > > As the attached shows traffic is free-flowing. > Where there is congestion is the ED Grove/ Townley > junction, as usual. Google Maps not showing all > the filters, so likely to be extra drivers having > to do u-turns. > > Yes that junction does need addressing too. Area > wide measures to encourage modal shift (not least > a borough wide CPZ) would be helpful in reducing > congestion there, on top the next stage of Dulwich > healthy streets. > > > dougiefreeman Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > > > Congestion is far worse right now than it has > ever > > been *because* of these closures. Whilst the > > fortunate ?few? are benefitting from lovely > clean > > air, everyone else is having to put up with > > increased air pollution. As a resident of the Northern section of East Dulwich Grove, I can testify that the traffic does not typically start overwhelming the junction of Lordship Lane/ EDG and the Goose Green roundabout until 8.30. Since 8.30am this morning there have been queues down EDG far beyond the junction of Oxonian. It is very easy for those who are not living this experience to take random screenshots and photos designed to imply that there is not a problem. Living the experience, as Heartblock has said, we are now averaging 6-9 hours a day of queuing traffic on this section of EDG. And no, it was NEVER like this previously. For reference, based on my lived experience since last Thursday, the times of extremely heavy traffic are: Between 8.30/ 8.45 and 9.30/9.45ish on weekday mornings Between 12.30 and 2.30 on weekdays Between 3.30 and 6.30/7 on weekdays 10am onwards for 9 hours on Saturday

From today?s Telegraph: (their paywall is currently suspended) https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/09/05/grant-shapps-tells-councils-stop-abusing-250m-fund-meant-green/ I have added some quotes below for those who might not manage to read until the paywall has been reinstated. ?Mr Shapps announced the ?250 million scheme to promote ?a new era for cycling and walking? at the height of lockdown in May. But today, Mr Shapps stresses how ?not everything has worked? and because they are trials and the height of the Covid emergency has now passed there is ample opportunity for councils to consult local residents, businesses and the disabled. In a direct message to council leaders, he says: ?Where some councils have abused the cash, my message is clear: speak to local residents, get it fixed or no more cash.?... ?The Telegraph revealed in July how the minister had personally intervened in his own constituency after being dismayed with the way Hertfordshire County Council had set up a one-way system in the village of Welwyn which was said to have left the high street deserted.? ?The minister said that while many green activists claim the car should ?die?, he believes it should instead ?evolve? to help save the planet. As an electric car driver himself he added how he was an ?electric head? rather than a petrol head, a description for those obsessed with fossil-fuelled motor vehicles. He also said it was essential to ?keep the main arteries of our economy flowing? at this pivotal time as Britain emerges from lockdown and prepares for Brexit. He adds: ?For those who say we shouldn?t be building roads, I say there?s nothing green about standing still in traffic, pumping out CO2 and pollution.?? Here?s hoping this helps Southwark see sense.

Is it just me, or is anyone else concerned about the knock on impact these changes are likely to have on trade in the area? I have friends elsewhere in South London who have already told me that after being caught up in a traffic jam in this neck of the woods, they?re in no hurry whatsoever to return. Sitting in traffic for 30+ minutes just to get to the shops on Lordship Lane simply doesn?t seem like an attractive prospect.

dougiefreeman Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I just submitted a petition to the southwark > council website - will post here once approved Thank you Dougie. This is much needed. The junction of Lordship Lane/ EDG and the Goose Green roundabout just cannot cope with all the displaced traffic. The queues on EDG were all the way back to the junction with Melbourne Grove when I passed just now (at around 10.50). This is completely unacceptable.