first mate

Spot on Heartblock. I'd take your view over that of certain other posters any day. The idea that the masses voted for LTNs at the last council elections is nonsense. LTNs were not even mentioned in the manifesto. Post covid, not many could stomach the thought of voting Tory, that even trounced my own view of what the council were and have done with LTNs. Some things are more important, but the current incumbents have not covered themselves in glory and the lack of democratic process has certainly lessened my respect for them as well as trust.

By 'we' you now feel you speak for all those who are disabled Mal?

Mr Chicken, i don't know if you live in ED or not but objection has always been to LTNs in this area. Even Sadiq Khan is reported as saying some LTNs work and some don't. There is strong feeling that local ED LTNs are not producing the benefits stated, especially for those living on boundary roads. Cllr McAsh has agreed to look into the data but has asked for a number of months to do that, suggesting that this is not just a courtesy as has been suggested elsewhere. You keep very deliberately trying to move discussion around LTNs into one of generalisations which does little to suggest you understand the local situation. Your attempts at humour are also poor and clearly aim to ridicule and undermine anyone who 'dares' query the pro LTN line. A number of pro LTN posters seem to use this as a tactic, so one wonders if you are comparing notes?

Mmmhmmmuhhh, There are doubts about the validity of data used to support the alleged 'success' of local LTNs. In fact, if you remember, Cllr McAsh has agreed to look into this? Now if the data was as cast iron as you suggest I doubt he'd waste his time. Hmmmm?

The pretty streets line is unconvincing. Dumped Lime bikes and scooters as well a various chained two wheel vehicles are not pretty. Bike hangars sre ugly. Club cars and EVs are no more visually appealing than others.

The problem is the premise that LTNs are equitable and fair- quite clearly they are not. The starting point is deeply flawed. It is a totally machiavellian approach.

Bic Basher said: "The fact you think I'm a Tory is hilarious. Now how about some discussion about the topic instead of using the same sardonic humour you and Mal usually provide." Bic, good point Mal and Mr C are doing a great job taking this thread way of course, back to thread saboteur mode. Can you please stick to the thread subject matter. As you say Bic, if LTNs were working so very well we'd have no need for CPZ to 'drive people out of their cars'.

You have hit the nail on the head. What it needs most of all is transparent and open dialogue between Council and communities they serve. That is just not happening, instead we have manipulation and paternalism.

Abbreviated as in hurry. SL= Southwark Labour. My concern is with local implementation and a borough -wide CPZ, not national. So referring to local council manifesto of 2022 and their pledges. Maybe check before you ask about manifesto content to make a point?

In their manifesto SL made much of how they would work to improve trains and local links...what have they done? So easy for Cllrs to wring their hands and say 'it is all the fault of the fault of the shareholders...not us'. Why then did they make that a manifesto pledge but not once mention borough-wide CPZs? Not very honest or transparent. There again, they cannot get revenue by improving trains, can they? I found Cllr McAsh's utterly disingenuous performance at the Assembly totally alienating. He has shown he is politically extremely ambitious and prepared to renege on promises at the drop of a hat. I apologise for mentioning CPZ on the LTN thread, but in reality they are inextricably linked ( as Ex Dulwicher points out elsewhere) and designed to work as a package.

Yet the article is largely accurate and draws attention to how the process surrounding attempted imposition of CPZ, if you can even call it a process, has been managed.

Modern Major General said: "The policy inexplicably changed in 2019. We have to all stand together against the council. It's no good each area resisting alone." I agree, the council needs to engage and listen and if this is the only way of doing it then more power to you.

Good that SN are looking at this.

That is true, just so long as the process that got the result is democratic and transparent. In this case, and most particularly in regard to imposition of a borough- wide CPZ, I do not believe the process has been democratic. The CPZ was not mentioned in the manifesto.

Other roads that are also residential. How can that possibly be viewed as fair?

So very sensitive all of a sudden about derailing. As I said, pots and kettles. I have not really deviated from the subject of dangerous drivers and have commented on driving that I think is inexcusable; including those who do not stick to 20mph. However, car drivers are not the only road users that show inconsiderate behaviour and to mention that is not completely irrelevant. Of course, I would not dream of describing the content of this thread as "whinging" about car drivers, because I appreciate this is all about different perspectives and experiences.

Ah, pots and kettles. I dislike dangerous car drivers as much as you do Chick, only I also dislike cyclists that flout the law for their own convenience and risk the safety of others.

Marvellous for some, really bad for others. Not equitable and ceratinly not democratic.

Actually the pots and kettles remark was in regard to your comments about others derailing threads. I am sure you never run red lights while riding a bike, you actually do not strike me as the type. Unfortunately many, many others do. I have a theory that some cyclists are 'born again' former petrol heads, who love speed. Having to stop at traffic lights is a faff and annoying for them.

Just watched that link, perpetuating the myth that the council election result of 2022 was a resounding vote in favour of Southwark Labour LTN policy; that would be the one that was not mentioned once in the manifesto.

Snollygoster. Hmm, reminds me of a certain local Councillor who completely abandoned his promises about implementation of CPZ. Clue, used to call himself marxist now changed to socialist.

Plenty of debate around LTNs in the media today, whatever one thinks of 'Fishy's' motivation for deciding to look at it, no bad thing to try to get better scrutiny. It may have more of an impact on Southwark's goal of a borough-wide CPZ too. Only way to try to get a proper debate via a properly democratic process is to sign up https://opposethecpz.org/2023/07/27/southwark-wide-petition/

Thanks for the reminder. At the very least, a proper debate is required.

Nope, never had a prosecution or FPN.

Where there is a will there is a way. I did not say this is already happening but CEO's might be given the power to issue fines via another instrument. We have fewer police but you can bet your bottom dollar we will soon have more CEO's.