evelknievel

Got to say I agree with Nom de plume, that was my immediate thought.

That's entirely my point, that is an experiment that suggests a link, but there are others that suggest no link - and certainly not a simple one. You're talking about human social behaviour, there must be millions of factors contributing to that in any environment. None of these can be shown to 'prove' anything, they just suggest. People, naturally, tend towards the evidence that supports their view or - in the case of this particular theory - justifies their policy. And anyway Social Science used to advance a particular political standpoint? There must be plenty of examples of that as well and not all of them very pretty. Can't be trusted. Just to be clear though, I'm not disputing that a tag on a wall will probably encourage other taggers, it's a territorial thing after all (isn't it? I really don't know), but the link to a decline into more serious disorder or crime is too tenuous for me, or too convenient.

As i said - i don't really want to get into this dicussion again because we went ove rall this before when discussing what to 'do' about the brick wall on North Cross Road - see forum thread from way back, on which I wrote '...but since you asked, a quick google search reveals 'More Guns, Less Crime' Univ of Chicago Press, 2000. Which refutes the Broken Windows theory.' We also discussed the difference between pure science and social science, of which both your 'broken windows' document and any that draws a different conclusion, is the latter. Incodentally the following is the response I received from a Criminologist friend when I mentioned the Broken Windows article. "It?s possibly the most influential criminology article ever published, and it wasn?t even by a criminologist ? hilarious. It?s what?s called the ?common sense? criminology of the right. Policy friendly. James Q Wilson, adviser to Reagan and Bush senior (and perhaps also Dubbya). Source of zero tolerance policing? Very few studies have concluded empirically that minor ?incivilities?, if left unchecked, lead to more serious ?crimes?." So please don't pass it off as fact. It's a theory.

I'm not getting into this again but there's as much evidence refuting the 'broken window effect' as there is in support of it. It's not scientific, it's a politically motivated selection of evidence to support a specific thesis. Not arguing that grafitti is good, or that it doesn't beget grafitti but it isn't proven that it represents some sort of inevitable collapse of general order.

In honour of St V's Day tomorrow. Have a listen to Richard Hawley - Valentine. There's a funny little bitter sweet video on YouTube. It's lovely.

Perfect timing with BBRR's 'Perfect Cousin' (what I like to do he doesn'), The London Marathon, taking place on Sunday. Anyone who's thinking of competing in the BBRR and wants to get an inkling of what it's like, watch that. It's nothing like that. Promotional material will be displayed prominently at Church of MEAT. ek

Children playing on trikes in the park are going to kill someone. Other peoples' dogs are going to 'savage' us. Seriously? Pull yourselves together people. Or stay indoors. You share the world with others, get over it.

SAVE THE WALL (as it is). There are many things in this world which need fixing but I just don't think this is one of them. ...and apologies if I missed it but what prompted the idea of decorating it anyway?

...but since you asked, a quick google search reveals 'More Guns, Less Crime' Univ of Chicago Press, 2000. Which refutes the Broken Windows theory. Of course the author is a Social scientist so again not claiming any facts, just providing evidence to support his theory. Besides the article you attached does miss the point somewhat - it's thesis is entirely based on peoples' behaviour on seeing 'a norm or rule being violated..'. An officially authorised graffiti wall, which was what was under discussion, wouldn't qualify as any kind of violation. Blah blah, is it the weekend yet?

Wasn't intending to have a go JBarber, but Social Scientists don't prove things, they present evidence to support theses. The science to which you refer is not 'pure' science. Nobody would claim that, it's not a question of 'not liking the science'. I don't dismiss it out of hand, but I don't think it's fact. Anyhooo, all a bit off topic, so...

Well yes JBARBER but Criminology is a Social Science so there are probably equally credible studies out there that imply the opposite, or at least that this isn't the case. You know, the whole lay every Economist in the world end to end and they wouldn't reach a conclusion theory. Same applies across most if not all Social Sciences. Besides there's too much that we don't know about those experiments to make a judgement on whether the same 'givens' apply to North Cross Road. That being said I don't personally favour a graffiti wall in this case because I think it would be incongruous to it's surroundings. But then I don't think there's any need for anything on this particular wall, much as I love public art done well, so perhaps my opinion is moot. Correct obviously but moot nonetheless...

Doubt if he'll be doing that either Sophie...

Would Battersea Power station look better if it had big coloured squares painted on it? Nope. The feature of this wall is in the architecture of the wall itself, the raised blocks are already there, it isn't just a plain wall. Are we so numb that we can't see that without the blocks thrusting themselves at us. If the coloured squares idea has merit for me, it's as a temporary, changeable, and ultimately reversible installation. That way you could do away with it altogether, or you could change it from time to time to reflect specific events or simply for variety. Far as graffiti goes I'm not an expert but I'm not sure a few coloured bloacks would make this wall any less graffiti friendly (doesn't strike me as a particularly graffiti friendly wall anyway) and besides, I don't remember ever seeing any on it.

I don't see the problem. I like that wall.

Jaybee, as Lee Trevino once said, if you get caught in a thunderstorm on the golf course stand in the open with your one iron held in the air. Even god can't hit a one iron.