JeffJames

The First Surrey Rifles Association have donated to Alleyns School its drums and various other artefacts that were in store at Flodden Road barracks. Alleyns School already had the First Surreys mace and two bugles and the drums are a welcome addition to the CCF band.

The battle for High Wood itself was over before the First Surreys were ordered forward on the 15th September 1916. Their task that day was the feature known as the Starfish Redoubt over a mile in front of High Wood. Their exploits that day have been recorded by the then Lt Col B L Montgomery (Monty) GSO1 of the 47th(London)Division see A H Maude's book available on the Open Library. On the morning of the 16th, the 1/23rd were given the same task and met a similar fate. Flodden Road barracks has the memorial to the 47th (London)Division. Over 30 separate regiments provided fresh drafts for the First Surreys in France and Flanders during the Great War. The official war diary states that 311 other ranks were drafted to the First Surreys following the attack on the 15th. Last year. in France, I located the position of Starfish and the other feature known as Cough Drop.

Correction to previous note, Albert McKenzie VC died of influenza. I have asked the Victoria Cross Society to contact Southwark Council with regard to an 'official' wreath for future Remembrance Sundays

I intended to visit the Minet Library to-day. However, since my last visit, Lambeth Council have introduced a ring of pernicious parking restrictions around the area, not the least being a ?3 per hour parking charge. I turned back and went to the cafe in Dulwich Park for coffee and cake. Much to my surprise there on the counter was a parking protest petition form. As it reads, Dulwich is likely to get the same treatment from Southwark that has been imposed on Lambeth residents. Don't let this happen! It will ruin the area!

I understand that there is civilian war dead memorial located at Camberwell Old Cemetery. The sweeping curved screen walls are worth a visit and the names carved on them represent a cross-section of our armed services, including The First Surryes. AB McKenzie's VC headstone would justify a visit in itself. The cemetery gardens are an oasis of peace and reflection.

At Camberwell Old Cemetery are the graves of 285 First World War and 14 Second World War burials. The two screen walls are carved with the names of the FWW and there are headstones of the Second World War fallen. There is a separate headstone for a young Able Seaman from Bermondsey, Albert McKenzie. AB Mckenzie was awarded a VC for his part in the Zeebruuge raid. He eventually died of wounds some months later. One small cross, one poppy and some flowers have been placed there to show that they are not forgotten.

First off, have you visited the Camberwell Old Cememtery or the New Cemetery or Nunhead Cemetery? The 1/12 (Dulwich) used to hold their parade on ground next to the Grove Tavern. There is some information known about them and they served a useful role in preparing men for army service as a draft finding unit. The Dulwich Common memorial is a testament to them. It has nothing to do with the 21st London Regiment (First Surreys). Their memorial is at St Giles', Camberwell. The 1st battalion, 21st Londons recruited widely throughout London and the Home Counties, about 5% of the casualties at High Wood were from the Camberwell district, of a total of 7 officers and 141 men lost on that afternoon. The 2nd battalion were even more diverse in its make-up. During the course of the FWW both battalions receiving large drafts from other regiments including the East Surrey Regiment and the London Rifle Brigade. 24 of he 2nd battalion were to lose their lives when, as part of the Egyptian Expeditionary Force, they were torpedoed off Alexandria at the year end 1917.

As the Dulwich Common memorial has received its fair share of attention, warranted or not. Perhaps the cadets at High Wood barracks can at last redress the balance by acknowledging the more significant memorial at the Camberwell Old Cemetery.

The significant Dulwich war memorials can be found in the three cemeteries at Honor Oak. Camberwell Old Cemetery, Camberwell New Cemetery and Nunhead Cemetery all within walking distance of one another. The First World War Memorial in the Camberwell Old Cemetery is impressive, to the right as you go in, and is worth a visit to walk around its 38 acres.

Does anyone know what happened to them? They had offices at 514 Lordship Lane and were in business during and after WW2. They would have had an extensive archive of local events in East Dulwich, including weddings. I am hoping that I can trace that archive.

During the 1940's my sister attended these classes. She thinks it was at a house in Grove Vale. Can anyone remember?

On Tuesday, I visited both the Old and the New Camberwell cemeteries. There is a Memorial listing the names of civilians killed in 1939-45 air-raids in the New cemetery and in the Old cemetery, a substantial First WW1 military memorial with WW2 additions. Both in their own way are appropriate, being in a peaceful, secluded, part of Dulwich. At the time they were placed there was probably no need to consider a future for them. Because of the location only a few people would ever get to see the names. In many ways, my visit confirmed my thinking that a more, central, public memorial should be considered. What, initally, was thought to be complex piece of research has boiled down to the military records for the 1939-45 conflict and any following that. Through Southwark Library, records are available for the civilian war dead 1914-18, 22 in Camberwell. The civilian war dead for 1939-45 and the Roll of Honour for the Great War 1914-18. Unfortunately, the Roll of Honour for 1939-45 has not been replicated in the same way as for the 1914-18 conflict which conveniently has a London section. Therefore, the names would be best gathered from local memorials and archives instead of going through the National Roll of Honour. However, this has the benefit of local involvement and anyone reading this that would like to help to gather the names should contact me through the ED forum. As a final thought, I would like to suggest Goose Green as a location for the new memorial.

Dean, Can you please confirm your e-mail. Jeff James

Thank you for your reply. As well as, I have been in touch with Southwark's Local History Library and they have provided useful facts and background. In due course, I will make a proposal as to how this might be progressed.

Thanks for your comments. No I am not him! I would like the names of those from East Dulwich that lost their lives. I think there is a need for a central ED memorial or plaque. As time moves on those local memorials become separated and forgotten.

I propose that a list is compiled of East Dulwich men and women and children, both civilian and military, that died in the two World Wars and other conflicts. For example, a list from East Dulwich churches. On plaques and memorials and other places such as the plaque at the 'sorting office' in Sylvester Road. I would like your help to compile the list. It may be possible to have a permanent plaque sited in East Dulwich. As a child, I remember the trauma associated with the bombings at Hindmans Road and the Co-op, Lordship Lane. I also have an abiding memory of the kindness shown by the people of East Dulwich.

By the end of 1914 the British Army had committed 10 divisions to the BEF in France and Belgium. This force, of professional regular soldiers, had mostly disappeared by the end of the year due to the unforeseen casualty rate. Although despised by Kitchener, during the same period, 23 Territorial Battalions, including 8 from London, had joined the fray and were fighting alongside what remained of the BEF. The London Scottish were the first to land in mid-September 1914. The First Surreys, part of he 47th(London Division), Landed at Havre, March 16th 1915. Yet to be formed, the 'citizen army' popularised by Kitchener's poster, 'Your Country needs You', had overwhelmed recruiting offices throughout the land. As upwards of 1million responded to the first patriotic call to arms.Initially, the army authorities were shocked by the quality of the recruits.Being underweight and poorly educated. Later, most would have gained on average 10kgs and benefited from the induction into army life. A structured daily routine, personal hygiene, regular meals, healthcare and being under the watchful eye of senior ncos and junior officers in a 'family' Regimental system responsible for their well-being. From this came comradeship, morale and 'esprit de corps'.

Thanks for spotting your aunt's name. I am waiting for her to confirm her dad's birthday. I mentioned Charlotte Smethurst, born Croydon. I meant to say born in Croydon. I have contributed before to the East Dulwich Forum through my article on the High Wood battle for the Dulwich Society. Jeff James

Hello Hilda, I misled you slighty with the family tree side. My grandson is the expert on this and has all the information on the Smethurst's who originate from Lancashire. I said that Alice Smethurst, my grandmother, was your dad's sister. That is not correct. I was a generation out. Alice's mother was Charlotte Smethurst, born Croydon. Alice had a brother called James and in the 1891 census they were all living to-gether at 37, Crown st, Camberwell. James Smethurst could be your grandfather. My grandson has all the details on his laptop but is away in Norfolk at the moment and not back until Friday. However, in the meantime, if you can confirm your dad's birthday that would help. If it was 1911 then you are definitely the Hilda I am looking for. I know my sister Barbara will be thrilled. Jeff James

Hello Hilda, In answer to your question, you could be! Do you remember any connection with the James family? My sister Barbara remembers Hilda more than I do. Do you fit the profile? Are you late sixties/ early seventies in age? I remember Johnny 'Smithers' [smethurst]. Was your dad born in 1911 and was a good joker? Jeff James

Can anyone help find Hilda? She is a long lost relative of mine. Her age would be late sixties/early seventies. She lived in Elsie Road, East Dulwich in the 1940's and 1950's. Her father was called John. Her correct family name is Smethurst which had been corrupted in a past census to Smithers. Alice Smethurst, my grandmother married my grandfather Benjamin James and lived at 102 Landells Road and then 15 Whateley Road. John Smethurst being Alice Smethurst's brother. I lived at 46 Archdale Road until I married in 1963.

I wrote the article for The Dulwich Society. During my research, I obtained from the Commonwealth War Graves people the complete 'Roll of Honour' of the First Surreys. I have since given the document to the Lambeth Archive as they hold The First Surreys archive. The archive needs some work to catalogue and identify photographs and documents. Perhaps someone would volunteer to do this. It would be a shame not to have this done properly. I was at Dulwich Common several weeks ago and the Memorial area needs a good tidy-up. I should remind you that The Memorial has nothing to do with the First Surreys. Their Memorial is at St Giles Camberwell.

Thanks John K. Could be very useful.

Thanks for this info. I have the casualty list from the Commonwealth War Graves Commission for The First Surreys 1/21st and The Rangers 1/12th. I would like to match the names on the list with those on the various war memorials around Dulwich. Could I ask all of you out there for some help. When you next pass a church or a war memorial can you make a list of the names and where it is located and e-mail it to me. e.g. I believe there is a plaque outside the sorting office in Sylvester Road. If you can photograph it as well then all the better. From that information, we can build a list of where the memorials are located and the names inscribed. I doesn't matter if they are not First Surreys or Rangers. Jeff James

In The Dulwich Society Autumn Newsletter No.158. There is an article covering the origins of the Remembrance Memorial which is both relevant to honouring the war dead as well as in the future development of the area by Southwark Council. I have been in touch with The First Surrey Rifles Association and through their Hon Secretary their committee have indicated that 'the historical connection of FSR with High Wood barracks is minimal'. They go on to say,' this is especially since for the last 83 years we have held our annual church parades at St Giles Church Camberwell where we have had a memorial chapel and our war memorial'. However, they go on to say that 'High Wood is very much in the mind of the High Wood cadet centre, which is commemorated in their Squadron Badge'. The Remembrance Memorial was for the Dulwich Volunteer Battalion 'it may have been a conduit for The 1/12th County of London Regiment [The Rangers], see the Newsletter. The battle for High Wood could be argued as the start of modern warfare where for the first time massed artllery, tanks and planes were used to-gether. There is much to remember and wonder at and I hope any information board erected by Southwark will reflect the original purpose of the Memorial and the bravery of a 'Citizen Army' on the 15th September 1916.