BusyRabbit

Thanks ed26. In response to: "There's a big difference between someone slipping an item into a bag when also pushing a trolley / carrying a basket and clearly using your own bag for your shopping." Actually, that's a * very * good point. Thank you! There's a slight grey area with items that aren't labelled by the shop but that's mostly only fruit and veg, so it's not a shop-wide issue of theft risk. For independents without clear price labelling this isn't an answer, hence the need for more engaged and engaging retail staff in independents. In response to: "It might have seemed suspicious a few years ago but these days it makes perfect sense to use your own bag so you know how much you can fit in it and whether it will be too heavy to carry comfortably. You can't grab a few extra carrier bags to carry extra items or split the load evenly between a few bags without having to pay for extra bags." I don't quite follow the logic of 'I have to carry my own bag rather than pay 5p so I can't use a shopping basket.'. Maybe I'm missing something. In respnse to: "Then you invariably have to scan your own shopping at the till anyway, so I would think that dishonest people are more likely to abuse the scanning system than to attract attention to themselves by stashing loads of goods in their own bag." Another good point. I think the research evidence is that most people do scan all their items. But I think if there's a culture of using your own non-transparent bag * and * scanning your own items that this is much more vulnerable to abuse than if you have a shop-provided basket or trolley and then self-scan. There's no point at which customers are having to be transparent to retailers in this process, whereas, say, the Canary Wharf Waitrose system means you scan as you go so you don't have to wait to queue at the end. Many years of working in retail on and off makes me sceptical about human purchasing behaviour in the absence of clear proactive interaction points between customer and seller, but maybe I'm wrong. Time will tell, I guess! In response to: "In my case, I often put shopping underneath the pushchair while I'm still in the store. It saves me carrying a basket / bag and also helps me to know how much will fit." Carrying a basket at the same time as a puschair is really unwieldy; I remember those days and the weekly unwieldy shop, and the limitations of how much shopping I could carry home. Now that you've jogged my memory, I think I may have put nappies in the basket beneath the buggy during the supermarket, and then taken them out to pay at the till. But if anyone had asked me what I was doing, I would have been able to explain. I wouldn't have thought to say 'I'm alright with what I'm doing thanks' [inferring that no-one else had the right to question my behaviour]. I would have explained: 'this is my weekly shop, and I need to fill my basket with food, so the nappies are temporarily in the basket and I will pay at the checkout.' The man I spoke with today did not do that, sadly. Best regards

Thanks nxjen. That's easy. Someone can dress posh and no longer have a job, be struggling to find work, have a failed business, be too ill to work etc etc. There might be all sorts of very sad reasons why someone might look posh but have no money, and be wanting things they can't afford [but used to afford easily] OR feel tempted to try and steal something OR try to steal something. I would tend to be sympathetic to that situation if so, depending on the circumstances - but that would not mean that I would act to ignore potential theft. I hope that helps you understand what I meant. Best regards

Thanks sweetgirl. I have no problem with elderly people as your or Rendell Harris have described - especially if they make it clear to security staff. (I remember now that I have elderly friends whose nearest supermarket is the Waitrose at Canary Wharf, which provides a digital self-checkout device to be used as you go round the shop, adding items to your basket, shopping trolley, or any other container.) In response to "I'm not sure how/if they [shops[ can pick & choose who is allowed to do this" - shop staff and others have to be very careful. You cannot accuse someone of shoplifting unless and until the accussed person has walked out of a premises with unpaid-for goods. Until then, the most you can do is, say, ask a customer to use a shopping basket or trolley that you have provided. Beyond that, retailers may ask a customer to leave their premises, provided (I think) that this doesn't breach equality rights legislation (but I really don't know the details of the Equality Act at all). In response to: "I would also like to add I wouldn't be happy if customers were to do this in my store." - thank you! In response to: "thirdly it's not my business to interfere. I saw a guy last Thursday pick up about 4/5 packs of fresh steak & walk out with them. Nobody was around to stop him, & it wasn't my business to get involved. To be honest staff & security no longer care so much anymore, most of us are underpaid & overworked! Even managers pretend like they haven't seen certain things! You have to ask yourself "is it worth it" " I had a very interesting conversation on a bus with a security guard a while ago; he told me quite a lot about the challenges shop managers have in preventing and monitoring theft, and how the security business tries to meet that challenge. (Very interesting if you're a nerdy type interested in the ways different businesses try to develop and adapt; there's a really good opportunity for a co-operatively owned security business run by security guards themselves imho.) I've not had the experience of security staff not caring about theft, so maybe I'm very naive about this issue. (7 or 8 years ago I remember attending a ward police liaison meeting at which the manager of Peckham Primark was speaking; the verbal and physical abuse his staff routinely received then was awful and disgusting - they were regularly spat at by some customers; anyone who works in that shop has my respect for being able to do so.). Yes, many of us are underpaid and overworked. That in itself can be argued to be a form of theft. Sadly, I don't think we can make a morally compelling case against theft from us if we ourselves are also knowlingly complicit in theft from others. We need to learn the language and skills to speak up respectfully about potential misdemeanours when and where we see them. Merely asking a question at the right time can nip a potential problem in the bud; over the years, I have several experiences of this in retail work. I may be wrong, but I suspect that sometimes - just sometimes - the actual feeling underlying "it's not my business" may be more a fear, of how to say something in difficult conflictual situations in a respectful and assertive way, than a literal belief that 'it's not my business'. I had a fantastic life coach who taught me respectfully assertive language for a personal challenge; it's been very useful everywhere in my life since... I know that sometimes my judgement and speaking up may be wrong; I don't yet feel that today was one of those occasions. I've learnt from people's responses, and raised an issue for wider discussion. I hope posters on this thread feel it's been useful for them too. Best regards

Please see my post above. Having worked in retail many years ago, I am reasonably aware of what can and cannot be said in such instances. As both I and Peckham Rose have explained, shoplifting does not actually occur until someone walks out of a commercial premises not having paid for goods. I therefore did nothing more than ask the man to use a shopping basket, and explained why when he said 'I'm ok with it, thanks.'. I did not accuse him of shoplifting or infer that he was going to do such a thing; that would have been slander. Being clear and transparent about the items for which one has not yet paid and those which one bought elsewhere is an easy way to avoid any questions that one may feel are awkward or invasive from staff or members of the public - especially if one's priority is to never have one's behaviour questioned, or to shop quickly and easily. Hence, supermarkets provide shopping baskets. Best regards

Thanks Peckham Rose. Your example of having an unwieldy helmet to carry at the same time makes it clear why you're not using a shopping basket. The man had no other items in his hands. In addition, you can see some of what's in a helmet, given its shape; you can't see through or into a cotton bag. So there's an element of transparency in your behaviour that I didn't see in today's earlier incident. I didn't ask the man what he was doing, I asked him to use a shopping basket. If you wish to respond angrily to such a question, that's your decision. Calico = form of cotton fabric. Best regards

Thanks. I didn't accuse the man of shoplifting, I asked him to use a shopping basket and explained why. There's an important distinction between the two, and I believe I would be legally vulnerable to accusations of slander if I had accused him of shoplifting. Technically, shoplifting doesn't occur until someone actually walks out of a commercial premises not having paid for goods; the language I used was mindful of that. btw, If I saw anyone doing this in any business, whether or not I was a co-owner of it, I would be concerned. Best regards

Thanks Rendell Harris Good criticism that I should be available to listen to, and respond to, criticisms of my post. In response to: "assuming that as a "co-owner" of the Co-op (I assume you mean you work for the business) you somehow have a right to act like a policeman and order other people about in any Co-op store" - I feel that you, perhaps, misunderstand co-operative ownership. Some co-ops are owned by their workers, some by their customers, some by their producers. The Co-op Food Group is mostly owned by its customer members, although these days staff are also able to be members. Because I am a customer member of the Co-op Food Group, I do indeed own the business in common with many thousands of other members, and hence I do have a right to be interested in what happens in the shop, and whether things may be happening that compromise the business. In response to "When my elderly great aunt goes to the supermarket (Waitrose) she takes her shopping trolley - unable to cope with both her trolley and a basket/second trolley, she always asks the security staff if it's OK to put stuff in her own trolley and they're more than happy with it - I presume if you were there you'd accuse her of using her trolley "in a way that enables others to steal"? I would have absolutely no problem with this, for two reasons: a) it's clar the reason for using her shopping trolley - the man I spoke to did not offer any reason why he felt he could not use a shopping basket; there may be a very good one but he didn't offer it. b) she asks the security staff and they're happy with it - the man I spoke to did not say 'but I asked and no-one objected' Had he done so, I would not have posted. Best regards Busy Rabbit

Is it just me or this a bit off and damaging to the businesses of Lordship Lane ? and beyond? I was in the Co-op on Lordship Lane about 12noon today when I saw a middle class-looking main [greying cropped hair, fashionably dressed, with a calico fabric bag] putting items from the reduced cold storage cabinet directly into his bag. I asked him to not do this but to use a shopping basket like all the other customers. (or words to that effect). I was assertive but polite. His very calm reply was ?I?m ok with it, thanks? and to continue putting items directly in his calico bag. Again, I was assertive but polite. I said ?Well, as a co-owner of this business, I?m not happy with it, it makes things very much more difficult for staff to detect and challenge theft. So please could you stop.? The man continued putting items directly in his calico bag. So I then went to talk to some shop staff and asked them to talk to the man. I left them to it, assuming that they would insist that he used the shopping baskets provided. But a short while later I saw the man still with only a calico bag full of items, and still no shopping bag. Finally, at the checkout, I went to pay a person, the man went to the machine-checkout. I saw him check several of his items through before it was my turn at the people-staffed checkout. I spoke to a couple of Co-op Food Group staff, and they both said ?oh we do get customers who do that?. Really? This seems unhelpful, to those staff and all the businesses on Lordship Lane. Is it just me or is this a bit off? As someone who has several thousand pounds of debt incurred from past unsuccessful entrepreneurial attempts, I recognise that there may be all sorts of reasons why a person who looks prosperous may actually be very hard up. And I would have great sympathies if that were the case. But that doesn?t mean that using calico bags in a way that enables others to steal is justified; for our culture in the long-term, I feel it?s pretty toxic. My concerns are that: ? I see no reason why, if you prefer to use your own bags [calico or otherwise rather than a plastic bag ? for which I thank you], you can?t keep such bags in your pocket / handbag / rucksack and empty until you have paid at the checkouts [staffed or automatic] ? We need a transparent and fair economy that works for everyone with all fair costs paid for, and that includes customer behaviour ? I?m aware of Celeste (?) on Lordship Lane having had problems with ?customers? pocketing items in the past. Having worked in small independent shops myself many years ago, I can see that this is an ongoing challenge. A culture in which customers can put things in their own bags in the shop before paying creates unnecessary confusion, additional stress for staff, and theft-tolerating, anti-business culture in the whole street (and beyond). ? This may be another instance of people misunderstanding co-ops as charities rather than as businesses seeking to out-compete the vulture economy for the common good; the Co-op Food Group is a business like other food retailers, and like them has to operate with very thin margins (2% or less). I have separate concerns that the Lordship Lane Co-op staff may lack the assertiveness to deal with such a situation; as one of the many thousands of co-owners of the Co-op Food Group I shall be writing to my London regional rep asking for clarification and action on that point. But I thought it might also be helpful to post these comments here too. I?m afraid I?m too busy to reply to any comments there may be, but I do hope that it?s not just me. We all need businesses for our all parts of our lives ? including employment - and bricks-and-mortar are under a lot of threats right now. Behaving in a way that reduces their vulnerability to theft and supports staff to prevent that seems a no-brainer to me ? especially when that business is cooperatively owned for the common good. Best regards all, Busy Rabbit

Yeah the Ivy House is great - but VERY popular. A friend tried to book a significant birthday party there on a Saturday recently, but they were booked up 6 months in advance... That said, good to see a co-operatively owned pub doing so well...

Great, many thanks, that all sounds good. I shall send another PM.

Suma Wholesale is a long-established workers' co-op that sells beans, lentils, "wholefoods" and specialist foods. See: http://www.suma.coop/ It was set up in the 1970s by people who realised that if they clubbed together and purchased wholesale, they would be able to buy basic healthy foodstuffs far cheaper [back in the days when wholefoods were exotic and more difficult to buy]. I think the idea of a group of people clubbing together to purchase Suma products at a slightly cheaper price in East Dulwich is a very good idea in principle, but: I haven't heard back to my PM sent on 3 Nov yet if it is to use the name "East Dulwich Food Co-op", I would want assurances that it was actually a co-op and registered as such, or operating using proper co-operative princples and intending to register formally as a co-op in the near future. Fingers crossed!

It may be that Southwark Council's Street Trading team have a policy about how many of a particular type of stall they want on each market; it might be worth checking that out when contacting them.

Thanks. Have requested that Admin deletes the thread; I can't see how to do that myself.

Not sure if posting this will be against EDF policy; and I hope this issue resolves itself well - but... If you're looking for new housemates / tenants, you might like to consider not choosing a Mr Roger Montgomery [who's a tiler] and his girlfriend, a Ms Susie / Susan Chang Hunt. They have been housemates with us for over a year in Bellenden Road area, and rent, bills and arrears have continuously built up, with repeated agreements to pay that have not materialised [or for a very short time if so]. Several thousand pounds are currently owing. We can support this claim with documentary evidence. I really hope this matter resolves itself well; as soon as it does, I shall post here to say so.