panda boy

Thanks for posting this Siduhe, i'll have a read soon... I think it's important to scrutinise all the council documents as the devil is in the detail, for example the original feasibility study the council had done on this recommended around 300 burial plots in the wooded area. This has now risen to around 1000 in their current proposals. Personally thats quite a hike and i'm keen to find out where this rise has come from...

> No, it won't. Local authorities, unlike internet > forum posters, have legal duties and obligations > and legally defined decision making processes. Yes DaveR, councils do have a legal obligation to provide burial services. However there is no legal requirement to locate these services within the borough. And far from being just an internet poster, I, as well as others objecting to this, are local to the areas that will be affected, so it is our obligation (also not legal) to ensure these plans are acceptable to all concerned. > I haven't read every word of the surveys, but I've > had a pretty good look at what appear to be the > most important ones. Kind of hard for me know which you have skimmed through. I recommend reading them all in full. Regarding the surveys, yes those are the ones that, despite repeated requests and promises, have only just been made available for public view, hence the suggestion of secrecy. Indeed a great deal of time and money has been put into formulating these plans. That doesn't give them any special rights however. Yes a great deal of work has been put into them, I would expect nothing less for such plans. I'm not quite sure what your point is here? I'm sure you are aware that these current plans are actually part 2 of the councils plans. That the original idea of re-tasking Honor Oak Rec ground for burial plots was rejected by local residents. So all the effort and work put into these plans has been part of a long term project and not just about the current proposals. I don't particularly want to get into a forum to and fro with you about this. I would be more than happy to carry on discussing this with you though, so PM me if you're interested in knowing more.

DaveR, thanks for commenting. I agree this should not be a "nimby outrage and pretend enviro-science" reaction, and I don't believe this is such a thing. There are areas of genuine concern in these councils plans. "Is anybody going to come up with a measured response to the proposals,", yes, and we are. Did you read the surveys? They contain some interesting facts about the site, about it's history and it's current state. I know there are a few to get through, but it is worth it in order to gain a more thorough understanding of this particular site that will be affected. There are several details that do not tally with the councils plans, I am interested in knowing why. There may well be a burial shortage in the UK, particularly so in London. My personal belief is the area would lose more than it would gain if the current council plans are allowed to go ahead.

Link to the surveys: http://www.southwark.gov.uk/downloads/download/4010/cemeteries

Update: The council are planning to have a public meeting on the 11th February concerning the proposed Camberwell Old and Camberwell New Cemeteries. They have also announced they will be sending letter to 1400 local residents on the 9th January. They have also, (finally) released the results of a variety of surveys performed on the areas between 2012 and 2014. I would suggest that anyone interested in these developments have a look at these surveys and the council information. A group of us who are concerned about the councils plans will be meeting up before February 11th. Please feel free to PM me or post on here if you'd like to get involved. > Do we have a clear idea of when these plans to cut > down the woodland will go ahead? Hopefully never.

I agree Penguin68, although helping to determine the facts about this particular site would be helped by having surveys carried out. Funnily enough these surveys have been carried out, but to date, despite being told the contrary, the results have not been released. I am all in favour for finding out more detail, i'm slightly less impressed that the detail now exists, but not obtainable. Be it 'ancient woodland' or not, it is still a positive and unique feature of the area and it's definition should not affect the current plans to effectively destroy it in the interests of creating burial spaces. What would be lost will be far greater than what would be gained, in my opinion.

Thanks for highlighting this Lewis. Concerning the wooded area in Camberwell Old Cemetery, the council performed a variety of surveys on the area. Soil, tree, topographical among them. Despite promising to release the results of these surveys, instead they have moved the plans from the 'proposal' stage to the 'planning' stage, despite being aware of the opposition to them. A promised public consultation turned into 3 public 'exhibitions' that were open for 2 hours each time. People who were informed were given less than a weeks notice to attend. The Council have now agreed to hold a public meeting at the end of January, but this was only after people started voicing their opposition to the plans and the cynical methods the Council are employing in getting them implemented. It appears the council are determined to force these plans through regardless of any opposition to them.

Here is a response I received from Councillor Darren Merrill about this; Thank you for you response to the meeting on the proposed plans for Southwark?s Cemeteries. I?m sorry for the short notice for the meeting date but its important to get the opinions of local resident as soon as possible . The time of year has not been chosen specifically, rather it was the first opportunity to begin the process of conversation on these proposal?s and the implementation of the next phase of the agreed cemetery strategy. It is important that we begin this next phase as we currently only have approximately 3 years worth of burial space left and the process of implementation will take some time. With the three dates available at different times of day on three different day including Saturday I am hoping we?ll get a high level of attendance. In addition all materials are available on our website ( www.sothwark.gov.uk/cemteriesplans ) with the engagement exercise closing on the 9th January 2015 so anyone who is not able to attend our exhibitions will be able to view the plans and make comment in their own time before the date. This is only the start of the conversation and with 1400 letters and leaflets having been sent out to households in the roads adjacent to the two cemeteries I hope to get a wide range of views to these plans from the residents which will help shape the application to planning. This will also give additional opportunity for stakeholder around the area to give there view. Please be reassured that I am taking on every ones views on these plan and I am looking forward to working with everyone on the implementation of the cemetery strategy and at the end of it we will have a cemetery that will be respectful and a great place to use. Cllr Darren J Merrill Cabinet Member for Environment, Recycling Community safety and volunteering 0207 525 3617

Here is the response I received from Councillor Darren Merrill concerning these plans and how the council are going about them; Thank you for you response to the meeting on the proposed plans for Southwark?s Cemeteries. I?m sorry for the short notice for the meeting date but its important to get the opinions of local resident as soon as possible . The time of year has not been chosen specifically, rather it was the first opportunity to begin the process of conversation on these proposal?s and the implementation of the next phase of the agreed cemetery strategy. It is important that we begin this next phase as we currently only have approximately 3 years worth of burial space left and the process of implementation will take some time. With the three dates available at different times of day on three different day including Saturday I am hoping we?ll get a high level of attendance. In addition all materials are available on our website ( www.sothwark.gov.uk/cemteriesplans ) with the engagement exercise closing on the 9th January 2015 so anyone who is not able to attend our exhibitions will be able to view the plans and make comment in their own time before the date. This is only the start of the conversation and with 1400 letters and leaflets having been sent out to households in the roads adjacent to the two cemeteries I hope to get a wide range of views to these plans from the residents which will help shape the application to planning. This will also give additional opportunity for stakeholder around the area to give there view. Please be reassured that I am taking on every ones views on these plan and I am looking forward to working with everyone on the implementation of the cemetery strategy and at the end of it we will have a cemetery that will be respectful and a great place to use. Cllr Darren J Merrill Cabinet Member for Environment, Recycling Community safety and volunteering 0207 525 3617

Thanks Laur Just to add, the leaflet with the proposals was received this morning (3rd dec) which details 3 public 'exhibitions', on the 6th, 8th and 10th December. No mention of a public consultation or of the studies that have been made of the area. Personally I think the council are being particularly underhand by offering such short notice and such a limited timeframe for the public to express an opinion on these plans. Especially considering the promises made earlier in the year.

Here you go Laur; www.southwark.gov.uk/cemeteriesplans Please share your thoughts.

> Surely though this is not just a money making > exercise but a means to create more much needed > burial plots? Well that's up for debate. Personally I think sacrificing an area of natural woodland to create 1000 plots is pretty shortsighted. There will always be a need for burial spaces, why destroy a unique and important pocket of nature to achieve it? And the way the council are going about this, not releasing information that has been gathered (using public money) suggests to me they are more interested in the money making aspect of this. But either way, they are officially proposing this now, without the promised public consultation and without releasing the relevant information. I for one am not particularly impressed by their behaviour.

Yes indeed dbboy, thanks (Although the councils plans cover both Camberwell Old and New Cemeteries.)

Having just read the pamphlet the council have so kindly produced and sent out, I am mildly apoplectic about their plans for Camberwell Old Cemetery. - Firstly there was supposed to be a public consultation before any plans were released. This consultation was scheduled for June 2014, on the completion of several studies of the area, soil, topographical, tree's, wildlife. This consultation has been put back to 'some time later in the year, and the council have refused to release the details of these studies to the public. Unless I have missed something this is utterly disingenuous and disgusting behaviour by the council to release these plans before a public consultation. The people behind this are well aware of objections against these plans, they appear to be simply trying to ignore them. - The map details the areas designated for new burial plots. The largest area would require the removal of trees and the flattening of the ground, with no mention of the burial plots that already exist there or the effect this would have on the flora and fauna in the area affected. Personally I will be fighting against this proposal. I understand the council are trying to make money out of creating more burial plots in the area, but to effectively destroy an ancient wild woodland area in London to do it is shortsighted and bizarre. The manner they are going about this, and their inability / refusal to communicate is nothing short of woeful and cynical.

Saw a sparrowhawk in Peckham Rye today, it was on the ground rustling around in the leaves at first, then it flew off with it's freshly caught rat in its talons. Very exciting spectacle.

Thanks for your input andcharall, but it appears you're missing the point slightly. The whole point is the council plan to expand the cemetery, potentially causing the destruction the wild habitat that currently exists there. I don't believe this is wise. As for the toilets, there is a pub very close to the cemetery so no real danger of anyone being 'caught short' while attending a funeral. As for 'better than forcing people to perform behind graves', not sure where that came from, or quite what it means. Nobodies forcing anyone to do any such thing. You're right to state that Camberwell New Cemetery has toilets, but to the best of my knowledge they've not been open for a while. (They're not currently listed as a facility on the Southwark website.) Plus it is a much larger space. I don't believe it's normal for a London cemetery to offer toilet facilities. I can find very few examples of those that do. Either way, as I stated, the councils has plans for this cemetery. This toilet block is somewhat of a surprise and i'm struggling to understand the motivation behind it. Does a cemetery of such a compact size require it's own toilet block? I personally don't think so. I think it's a terrible idea. And no, of course a toilet block is not going to 'decimate the local flora and fauna'. The expansion plans certainly will. Why are you talking in such extremes?

I agree Laur, Apart from the council plans to develop the wooded area of the cemetery, (for which they are giving 2 reasons for; increasing burial plots, or just to allow 'more pubic access',) the toilet block is a very strange move. I'm not aware of cemeteries having or needing toilets, let alone a cemetery as small as this. It doesn't really make any sense. Has it been requested by the public? As I said in my first post, there were 2 notices put up for a short time, nothing more. Details can be found here; http://moderngov.southwark.gov.uk/mgAi.aspx?id=32956&LLL=0 While describing it as a 'temporary structure' it also alludes to it being replaced by a permanent structure in due course... I'm personally concerned about the councils development plans for this cemetery, and the potential loss of the wooded area that is a haven for wildlife. Does anyone know any more about this?

Just wanted to post something about this to the local populous, well the ones who read the forum anyway...! It was very well attended, (40+ people at a guess), many more than expected turned up. We were treated to an 'after hours' tour of the cemetery, led by Daniel Greenwood from the London Wildlife Trust. I must say it was very informative and enjoyable, learning about the flora, fauna and local history of the site which was detailed and fascinating. The cemetery has pockets of wilderness which the the wildlife clearly make great use of. In one hour, and considering we were a large group, we saw 2 species (among many others) that are listed as red on the RSPB danger list, which I would consider to be amazing considering the small footprint of the cemetery. It was even more prescient considering the council's proposed plans to redevelop parts of the cemetery, something I'm personally against given the loss of habitat that would result. For anyone that's interested, the latest council plan is to build a temporary toilet block in the middle of the cemetery... These plans have been rather subtle to say the least - 2 notices put up for the 'required period of time', but interestingly not mentioned directly by the council during a meeting about the general proposed redevelopment. I'm personally a bit bemused as to why such a relatively small cemetery requires a toilet block at all? So as well as bigging up the bird walk, i'd also like to bring the council's plans (toilet block and 'redevelopment') to the attention of the forum to see what locals think. All views welcome...

ANSWER: The proposal is to return the area to use for burial. This is the phrase that is personally most concerning. Quite how anyone can view this part of the cemetery as being even remotely suitable for burials is beyond me, even before the countless studies have been completed. (Although I am interested to see the results of all these studies, should make for some interesting reading...)

Personally I prefer to fly from Heathrow, I find they have a greater selection and more flexible flights than Gatwick. (The airport choice very much depends on the flight you want to get though.) I always use The Keen Group for my airport cabs, (they absorbed Dulwich Cabs who I used before that) and have never had a problem with them, for either drop offs or pick ups.

I recently used a company called ifix express for a iphone cracked screen. http://www.ifixexpress.co.uk/ipad-repair-london/ They came round to my home the next day, (although they can do same day if possible) fixed my broken screen, all done in 30 minutes. I found them no more expensive than going into a repair centre, and I didn't have to leave the house, fantastic service. (And i have absolutely no affiliation with them whatsoever, just a satisfied customer...!)

Unusual spider evicted from the bathroom. From it's markings it looked very much like a false widow. Aggressive little thing...

They got half way up Underhill too. Tossers.

Well said Willard.

Bluerevolution, you seem to have missed the point. Why should anyone get a childcare allowance when they have decided to stay at home to raise their children? What do they need the childcare allowance for? Not for childcare as they're performing that function.