Frank

A worthwhile listen ...

Did anyone notice Sainsburies' "Dutch Crispbakes" became "Crispbakes" just a few weeks before the referendum????? An inglorious Revolution ... https://www.facebook.com/48CamberwellPeckhamEastDulwich/

Hi Jaywalker, I agree that there are realistic scenarios in which an Art.50 trigger can be reversed. I think that a strong showing of movements like the 48% in the politics of the next 2 years can have a significant impact on the willingness of the EU27 and the European parliament to pave the way for a return of the UK into full EU membership. I don't believe it is merely a legal matter that the European Courts will take care of. The European Courts might open the door in principle, but the re-entry fee will be determined politically not legally. Frank

Hi Administrator I am fine with whatever works best for you :) Let me thank you for the work you do on this forum with your fellow admins! Great job! Frank

-- moved topic --

Hi Pebs, Sure, there will not be much that can stop that at such short notice. But this is a long game ... and the Art.50 trigger is only the beginning and not the end. It will take time for people to come to terms with the full impact of what a Brexit will be, it will also take time for people to accept that voting differently at the next election might not make any difference and that we need to solve this problem in a different way. Maybe a year, maybe two? Who knows maybe even half a decade. But possibly also less than that. Every year that we can take off the most pessimist estimate is a year won for our youths, our kids, and those yet unborn.

You can find our local group here, if you're interested, https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092904207464344/ and the nation-wide page is here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1214912015208730/

Looking for hosts: There will be a rally against Brexit in London on 25/3/2017 at 11h am at Westminster. Some members of the nation-wide 48% movement seek to travel from far away places to come to London but worry about the cost of accomodation on top of the rail/plane fares. As a local 48% group we are trying to see whether there are local people in our area who would be willing to host a participant to the rally on Fri/Sat 24/25 March and/or Sat/Sun 25/26 March? Local London 48% groups are making an inventory and if we can generate a reasonable number of potential places then we will create a separate page where those who want to host and those who seek a host can find eachother. If you are interested in hosting, please leave a response or send em a message (no need to join our group for this, but welcome of course), and indicate a preference for dates, number of guests. Note that this absolutely does NOT commit you to anything and at every point in the process it will be YOU who decides what they offer and to whom!

Looking for hosts: There will be a rally against Brexit in London on 25/3/2017 at 11h am at Westminster. Some members of the nation-wide 48% movement seek to travel from far away places to come to London but worry about the cost of accomodation on top of the rail/plane fares. As a local 48% group we are trying to see whether there are local people in our area who would be willing to host a participant to the rally on Fri/Sat 24/25 March and/or Sat/Sun 25/26 March? Local London 48% groups are making an inventory and if we can generate a reasonable number of potential places then we will create a separate page where those who want to host and those who seek a host can find eachother. If you are interested in hosting, please leave a response or send em a message (no need to join our group for this, but welcome of course), and indicate a preference for dates, number of guests. Note that this absolutely does NOT commit you to anything and at every point in the process it will be YOU who decides what they offer and to whom!

And this is the event for the 25th of March https://www.facebook.com/events/1812530828971846/

Here is a link to the Facebook event for the rally of February 4th https://www.facebook.com/events/1780707565525298/

Hi Pebs, yes I will do so :) I will post two links here later tonight. The link to our Facebook group is https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092904207464344/ which is a closed group but I monitor every day whether new members request to sign up; This group also has a public page, here https://www.facebook.com/48CamberwellPeckhamEastDulwich/ which people can read and interact with group members without joining the group :) Cheers, Frank

Hi TheCat, Of course life inside the EU also comes with a whole set of challenges. But I don't know any Remainer who is a afraid of a challenge. But Russian Roulette is not a challenge ... it is plain stupid. Theresa May's speech makes very clear where her priorities are ... and close international collaboration with your neighbours is not among them. Rather she spoke of making Britain Great again ... That is not a challenge, that is merely short-sighted.

Hi Lorelei, you are very welcome to join us. I hope we can collect a wide range of people all who can bring with them their own interests, skills and talents so that we can be active in a broad sense both for the national interest as well as for our own community here in Camberwell, Peckham and East Dulwich. We don't want to be just another group of talk, online posting and 'moaning about leavers' (although each of these things are sometimes just enjoyable to let of steam) but we want to make a local difference, inspire other groups to do the same and together with others make a national and European difference? "Rebellions are built on hope" after all.

Hi Pebs, There is a rally planed for February the 4th and another one for March the 25th. So the answer is yes :) In our group we are also hoping to not only participate in these rallies but also organise concrete and also local activities in support of ultimately Remaining part of the EU. Cheers, Frank

Hi John, I agree that in a democracy you never lose the right to argue in favor of repealing past decisions for future times. With Brexit we have not even reached the point yet that a proper democratic decision has been taken as this is the sole right of parliament in the UK (except in cases where a prerogative applies or devolution agreements are valid).

Hi Jules-and-Boo, There was no intent to be arrogant. Of course the opposition to the '72 referendum result did not have internet at its disposal to organize post-referendum. However evidently from the 1990's onwards they did. My point was merely that the opposition ot EU membership did not resign to the fact that they 'lost the referendum' and that they had to submit to the democractic will of the people. So I think it would be reasonable of them to allow the opposition of Brexit to rebel against a Brexit for at least another 39 years before they could legitimately complain we are overdoing it. Hi Administrator, I am fine with moving this post. When looking at the description of the 'lounge' I simply thought this here was the preferable place. I am sorry for any inconvenience caused.

I am off to bed now. But I will respond in the morning to any additional questions that you post here! Sleep well and have a good start of the new week!

Hi Louisa, I totally understand your point and I think the question whether it is legitimate to try and overturn the referendum outcome is a good one and a really important one. I have some answers but I can understand if you won't find them totally convincing. Let me start with what I find the most important argument: [1] The Brexit decision takes away certain rights and freedoms of ALL UK citizens. In most Western democracies rights & freedoms can only be taken away from people by making changes to the written constitutions of those countries. Such changes usually require a 2/3 majority, not a 52/48 majority. The EU referendum did not have any safeguards against a small majority taking away rights & freedoms that a large minority cherishes. That in principle looks like a huge constitutional error ... however it wasn't really an error within the UK context because of the following point: [2] The referendum was advisory Now this is a point that many leave voters usually dismiss. I understand that, but it is important to realise that parliament chose to write the referendum bill for the EU referendum as an advisory referendum and not, as they did do for the Alternative Vote referendum, as a binding referendum. The referendum outcome was and is advisory and parliament did not yet have a say about whether or not they adopt the referendum outcome. But in view of point [1] this becomes extra important. For large minorities, such as the 48%, to have any protection against small majorities parliament should not play games with the constitutional protection of rights and freedoms ... even if those rights and freedoms derive from European Law adopted by the UK parliament. When campaigning politicians started blurting out that they would 'execute the referendum decision no matter what it was' they were committing a callous and grave error against (1) parliamentary sovereignty (because parliament had not made the referendum binding) and against (2) the constitutional protection of UK citizens. [3] The Leave campaign knowingly peddled lies about the current UK-EU relationship Leave voters will usually argue that the Remain campaign also said things that weren't true, or turned out not to be true. It is true that many of the doom's day forecasts of some Remain campaigners have not yet come true. So quite a few Remain campaign statements about the future ... were off (at the moment). But the thing is .. the Remain campaign almost never gave a distorted representation of the CURRENT relationship between EU and UK. The Leave campaign however systematically lied, deceived and misinformed people about the CURRENT relationship between EU and UK. It wasn't just the lie about the UK contribution to the EU budget, but also about the UK not having a veto regarding new states joining the EU, about the UK always losing votes in Brussels, about the UK not being able to check EU migrants entering the country, about the UK not being able to ban criminal EU migrants from entering the country, about 80% of laws being imposed on the UK ... and the list is endless. [4] No plan for Brexit Finally the Leave campaign did not offer any kind of plan for Brexit. All they did was claim, without any evidence, that it was going to be easy. Now more than 6 months later ... they still do not have a plan. I think on Tuesday we will only hear more 'bravado' from Theresa May but nothing which would resemble a realistic plan. And there is of course a reason for that ... there is no 'easy Brexit'. People were deceived into voting for something, Brexit, of which the proponents did not know how to do it, how much it would cost and what the implications would be. But they showered voters with lies and deceptions to cover up their callousness. Now you might say: but this is how the people voted, so it must be done that is democracy! And I agree that this is one way to look at it. But many in the 48% believe that because of these reasons the referendum outcome is anything but democratic. They believe it is a con and their heart breaks when seeing how their country and their democracy are being destroyed, some of their rights they cherish are going to be taken away from and their children. So here we are at a crossroads ... a crossroads where we should never have arrived in this way. We are here because parliament has forsaken it's duty. It has failed to represent and protect the freedoms and rights of the 48%, but it has equally failed to ensure that the 52% get the transparent, fair and valid referendum they were entitled to. Instead the 100% got a bloody mess because well-paid representatives in Westminster forgot to do their jobs properly in a crucial moment in history. Groups like ours, comprising of UK citizens who voted Remain, but also those who voted to leave but have second thoughts, also those who didn't have the vote but who have lived here now for years, sometimes decades, paid their taxes, upheld the law of the land, all those who feel deeply that going along with this is wrong for East Dulwich, wrong for London and the UK, wrong for the EU. But maybe most important ... wrong for our democracy and our constitution. I think in the end ... it is a decision of the heart maybe more than of the mind. Many Leavers have been arguing against EU membership for 40 years after they lost the first referendum in 1973 ... they should not be so na?ve and expect that Remainers are less passionate, less determined and less persistent than they were.

Hi uncleglen, if you want to suggest that a majority, a large majority, in Southwark and in Lambeth voted Remain ... yeah you are right! If you want to suggest that those people did so because they thought it was in the best interests of themselves and their fellow countrymen to remain in the EU, yeah that is probably what they thought. If you think this group is 'self interested' because we still believe that it would be in all of our best interest to remain in the EU ... right again! But what is your point? Cheers, Frank

If people are interested I am happy to be available in The Phoenix later this week during an evening for Questions & Answers.

Hi clockworkorange, ultimately what this group wants to achieve is that the UK does not leave the EU or, when it does leave, that it will only be out of the EU temporarily. Evidently a only a handful of people in East Dulwich won't be able to achieve that. But that is why we're part of a much larger movement that is slowly organising even though it is still largely online. But there are already a few really active groups across the country and we want to play our part here in SE5/SE15/SE22. The slightly wider agenda is that we are all also worried about the authoritarian styles of government that seems to becoming increasingly popular among pro-leave politicians & groups as well as across the West. We also are not in favour of increasingly nationalist politics in Europe and the decline of international cooperation. We very much see Brexit as part of that. But we are aware of that we are just a small group in South East London ... yet part of something bigger that is growing from the grassroots rather than affiliated to one or another political party.

Hi Edhistory, currently we are 9 but we only very recently got started and as a first thing we want to become more visible offline and not rely only on online stuff. It ain't a revolution yet, but as far as I can tell it is a bunch of good people. I would say ... we should give it a chance and we have little to lose. Hi Tomskip, we're open to everyone, no need for scrutiny.

We can also be found on Wordpress, which might give you a little more information. https://stopbrexitrebellion.wordpress.com/2017/01/15/meeting-in-the-phoenix/

I guess you all know what 'The 48%' mean in the EU-referendum context and some of you might also know that there is now a large nation-wide group by that name on Facebook (over 50,000 members!). I live in East-Dulwich and would like to let you know that we now also have a local group 'The 48% - Camberwell, Peckham & East Dulwich' that I would like to invite you to join! https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092904207464344/ We get together informally every now and then in The Phoenix at Denmark Hill station and participate with other Londoners and 48% groups in campaigns and discussions regarding Brexit. We're not affiliated with particular political parties and everyone who is a resident of East Dulwich and would like to take part in efforts to keep the UK inside the EU is welcome. Cheers, Frank