Ligaturiosity

Keef I am sure you are not trying to be 'unfriendly or nasty', nor am I. I did judge...because becoming a parent is about doing the best by your child, providing s/he the best you can and giving them a good life to the best of your ability, pregnant woman who smoke use any excuse going. I used to drink quite a bit of wine before I got pregnant, but as soon as I found out I stopped...my pregnancy was extremely stressful but I never turned to anything just inner strength and exercise...but hey some people are weak and some are strong.

Waterbottle, thankyou for your post. IMO, yours is the FIRST post from a smoker's perspective - and a woman who smoked during pregnancy - which is written reasonably and in a non dogmatic way. As you have written in such a reasonable way I am prepared to take on board your points and empathise to a point. You say you have teenagers, so when you were pregnant smoking was not as socially unacceptable as it is now. Hell it is illegal to smoke in public places now thankfully. It is hard for me to understand addiction as I have never been addicted to anything, but that was never my point. You have explained very reasonably that you knew it was bad doing it, but that the urge on occasion was overwhelming for you. I just don't think it is wise in this day and age to do it so blatantly. You are opening yourself up to criticism, as was Kate Moss and the delectable Kerry Katona who also smoked during their pregnancies and were seen doing it by photographers. Giggirl, I am not 'worth engaging' with IN YOUR OPINION. You are not worth engaging with IN MY OPINION.

"Helena handbasket" the 'misquoted bits' were from giggirl's posting so not sure at all what you are on about. I couldn't care less if you don't believe me, lol!!! I am mystified as to why are you even on this thread. Is it because you are secure behind your computer screen, and can descend into an accentuated form of 'road-rage', safe in the knowledge (metaphorically speaking of course), that you do not have to worry about me emerging from my car and dragging you out of yours? Not that I would stoop to such depths, but hey i did say metaphorically speaking, didn't I? Is your loathing of my cyber persona an inculcated desire for totalitarian control of a discussion ie this one? I suspect so. Here you can take refuge behind some sort of cyber defence. Doubt you'd have the confidence to say anything to someone like me in 'real life'. Personally, as I have suggested, I prefer direct interaction but only on rare occasions when I see something morally and socially objectionable (I think most agree that what I saw was not to be commended). I have been on this forum long enough on and off to recognise that this is not the only example of a thread turning into a quadrangle of tarmac where 'children' congregate during free-time at school.

Ok Giggirl, I have largely ignored many of your rude and sarcastic postings, but I felt the need to address this accusation that you made: "Ligaturiosity - what a BIG BULLY you are and all the while trying to accuse other people of being bullies. Unbelievable. I don't think I've ever seen the like of such bullying on the forum." Oh really? If you are referring to Cyberbullying, which I assume you are since you do not know me so cannot comment on that "involves the use of the internet to support deliberate, repeated, and hostile behavior by an individual or group, that is intended to harm others. -Bill Belsey. Additionally, it certainly hasn't been me that has made ongoing pejorative remarks towards others (e.g. psycho/nutter/one woman angry mob/bully) and threats (ie would have punched if I had said anything to them). If anything I have tried to explain myself. So you don't like my explanation? I certainly don't go hurling vitriolic names to all and sundry. You also say "Throwing accusations at Keef on a public forum to say you've had PMs from (a bunch of cowards) not prepared to post on an open forum. That's a whole new low." What? A whole new low by me and them? I don't blame them for not posting publically/publicly if this is what they would get for disagreeing with people like you. Why are they a bunch of cowards just because they don't want to be on the receiving end of vitriol? Your points to heidi H have been especially unpleasant and sarcastic. "Yes HH you're right. Some people are WEAK. Let's save ourselves a lot of trouble for the future, put all the WEAK people against a wall and shoot them shall we? Serves them right for being weak." You just sound so defensive and ANGRY. Camomile tea - esp 2 teabags per cup - is quite good for calming one down, have you tried it?

Barney DVDs from Amazon. You'll get guaranteed peace. The Wiggles DVDs come a close second.

Monniemae, you have also dismissed my points!!! I have engaged with many of those who disagree with me. You don't like me calling your analogies 'ridiculous' yet you feel it appropriate to attack me personally as "utterly misguided" and a 'bully'. As explained a bully is someone who does something to undermine others who are usually weaker habitually. I do not do that. I am a more confrontational person than reserved, but do not pick on weaker types to boost my insecurity, which is generally what bullies do. Happily I am not insecure, and I deal with the stress that we all get from time to time in quite healthy ways like exercise. I have the odd glass of wine as well. And no I am not pregnant. My "lack of desire or ability to see this from the other woman?s perspective" - I have already answered this point MANY TIMES and so have others like Heidi and Harshbut Fair. but I would like you to expand upon my "shaky understanding of science and medical advice". How is it shaky? You advise me to "leave everyone else?s *unborn* children alone" which is exactly what I did.

Hi esme, agree with the above postings that all manner of abdominal exercises are great for getting a flat stomach inc. work on the obliques, but there have to be quite a lot of repetitions. I just did a course a few months back qualifying as an exercise to music instructor and concentrated quite a lot on the muscular, strength and endurance part which consisted of a lot of stomach and back work. I would recommend a couple of classes a week if you can, unless you are extremely motivated to do it alone (I am not). I go from time to time to ED Leisure Centre and do Theo's amazing exercise classes (a bit of a shock to beginners but he can help get your body in amazing shape). A more gentle introduction would be a legs bums and tums or body conditioning class and there are some good ones at Peckham Pulse and ED. I personally hate running but appreciate that it is a fabulous way of keeping in shape!

Helena Handbasket, so you feel the urgent need to read this thread and use the excuse that it is 'car crash', lol, 'you can't stop yourself'. Get a grip. But I know what you mean....:) You refer to me as a'dim ignorant sociopath'. Yes this IS now resembling a 'bad high school movie', greatly helped by your input.

monniemae, it's a free world and you are entitled to your opinion. However, your analogies are beyond ridiculous and deliberately contrary. Sean M, it might have sounded dismissive but I did not dismiss the importance of diet. I take on board and respect your very different opinion but it is not one I share. Remotely.

How have I 'dismissed so many other things such as diet'? Did you read what I said about your misrepresentation of what I have been saying? This is yet another example. Of course a healthy diet is important but it is much more socially unacceptable and potentially dangerous to be smoking than eating a bar of chocolate. Everything a pregnant woman imbibes goes to the growing foetus. Clearly, this means that there isn't room for dangerous cigarette smoke and it's harmful chemical contents. It is proven that hese chemicals will find their way to the foetus through the placenta. These chemicals can harm your baby and can sometimes be fatal. I do not see how eating a mars bar can have anywhere near the same detrimental effects. Thankfully, public opinion regarding cigarette smoking in this country has undergone significant changes in the last few decades. Majority opinion has shifted toward a more negative view of smoking, (shouts) ESPECIALLY WHEN SOMEONE IS DOING IT WHO IS PREGNANT!

Well Keef I am glad that the rest of it is BS, but I got two PMs from people alleging that is what you did/do. I am glad that you have managed to set the record straight.

SeanM, you are totally wrong in saying that I am "trying to say that an unborn child should be put under NO risk or danger at all." That is not what I am saying. It is yet another example of twisting my words entirely. When did I say or suggest this? And believe me you can say 'ashamed' and 'disgusted' in a polite fashion. I would have no problem at all with someone saying such a thing to me if I was doing something which is likely to harm an innocent being. I DO NOT classify being a bully since it can be defined along the lines of a person who is habitually cruel or overbearing, especially to smaller or weaker people. Habitually being the operative word, and to some extent smaller and weaker. I note that you 'habitually' pop up shouting your mouth off on various occasions which is fine I suppose...but definitely pot calling the kettle black. I am well aware that you socialise with SOME on the forum, and once again you twist my words saying I said 'the people are happy to stick to an internet website'. I said no such thing. STOP TWISTING and misconstruing please.

I had decided not to post on here again, but since the debate is continuing - and there are some reasonable points being made now, thank goodness, I want to take this opportunity to say I consider that much of what I said has been taken out of context. Of course in asking people's opinion I expected many people to disagree with what I said. But not everyone has disagreed, and frankly this forum is not a reflection of the wider society. Incidentally, I should not have originally phrased it 'let loose' when I encounterd this woman as I was quite calm. If I am honest the words just popped out, and I was quite polite really! I never said I wasn't polite, so strange that I have been called a psycho by the 'charming' Lawrence (deliberate sarcasm used). I do accept that not everyone would have spoken out; that's fine. I have no problem with that at all. I did not 'tell off' mum to be either. Nor am I a 'one woman angry mob' as Louisej seemed to think. I am not surprised she thought that though, reading some of the postings aimed at me. I am sorry if that is how it comes across in my postings too. Emails/written messages do not always express the appropriate sentiment and emotion. Sure I accept that maybe it wasn't 'my place' to say anything. But I did. It may be socially unacceptable, but so is smoking, esp publicly/publically while pregnant. I am relieved that posters like Heidi, Esme, Plimsoul, HBF can see that (and the people who have messaged me privately). Keef: in your continued defence that the odd 'cheeky puff' doesn't do any harm, I am taking a calculated guess that you are a smoker and have done so around pregnant women and young children. Nice. Was it Sean M who said it is more dangerous for a pregnant woman to cross the road? A ridiculous thing to say IMHO, unless you meant to say, but forgot to add, that said pregnant woman was lighting up as she was crossing the road and not paying attention to passing traffic. I have been genuinely flabbergasted (as have others who have PMed me but won't post) that forumites have commended those women who have posted on here admitting they didn't give up smoking while pregnant as it was 'too hard'. Most medics recommend pregnant smoking women try nicotine patches as that is not as 'bad' for the foetus as the carbon monoxide and other toxic chemicals in cigarettes. I appreciate I am fighting a losing battle on here, but I firmly believe that there are certain, thankfully, RARE instances where people should speak out. Two final points: why are some people too afraid to post in support? Because there are a few on here who are real bullies, albeit cyber ones. I bet said people wouldn't say boo to a goose in real life, preferring to stomp around on an internet website, lol. Standswithfist: you were stressed while pregnant and therefore allege that the medics told you to carry on smoking. My youngest child was BORN at Kings and that is a stressful enough experience, but I cannot condone the fact that you chose to continue to smoke when there are other stress relieving activites to help. I cannot believe that members of the medical profession did not support you further in trying to give up.

You repulse me Lawrence. Your language is far more offensive than mine.

Jollybaby, did I say that I said something so that it WOULD 'work' (ie her quitting smoking)? No I did not. I said it because I felt shocked and disgusted by it. Period. It is not my business if she chooses to put her health and more importantly that of her foetuses, at risk. But I feel it is my business if I see something so evidently revolting to me and countless others, to express that revulsion. At the same time it is the individual's right to remain silent if they feel that the appropriate tactic. I don't care if someone is a crack smoking, binge drinking, heroin shooting, smoking, prostitute. When you find out that you are pregnant you STOP these things. If you have trouble stopping you GET HELP. I don't buy that you "can't" stop. Because now you are putting these things into a baby, not just yourself. If you don't want to have to take care of a baby for nine months- don't get pregnant. I see no difference between smoking when you know you are pregnant and teaching/making your six month old to smoke. As Heidi has said, if you choose to offend society with your socially and morally unacceptable behaviour, you are opening yourself up to be criticised.