FairTgirl

Dogkennelhillbilly Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I cannot recall any occasion on which I have ever > heard a shopkeeper (including family members!) or > taxi driver say anything in favour of any proposed > change to traffic management. Not yellow lines, > not red routes, not the congestion charge, not > ULEZ, not CPZ, not school streets, and not LTNs. > Not in Dulwich, not anywhere else I've lived. > Perhaps this is a result of my own confirmation > bias. Definitely in favour of timed closures for school streets. So there you go, you have heard one.

And meanwhile?

Spartacus Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > There is a factor that the argument for road > closure fails to take into effect for businesses. > > I mentally call it the blues brother shopping mall > effect. In the original film they drove through a > shopping mall calling out the businesses in it. > Whilst it's not a shopping mall, cars traversing > through a shopping street can result in driver / > passenger spotting a business that they didn't > know existed there, thus encouraging them to stop > or return another day. This also has the opposite > effect of when cars don't pass the business it > becomes out of sight, out of mind ! > > Don't get me wrong as pedestrians and cyclists > will have a similar effect however more often than > not car drivers that experience the phenomenon > will be from just outside of the area thus adding > to the trade a business will normal get. (Cyclist > and pedestrians are normally more local) > > Equally if an area is harder to get to or park in, > trade will naturally migrate to places that are > easier for drivers, it's the unintentional side > effect out of town shopping centres, retail parks > and large supermarkets had on business in town > centres from the 80s onwards. > > So before people say "but the road is accessible > from one end", think about what knock on effect it > has on businesses located on it from passing trade > and how it encourages people to shop elsewhere. > > As I said before, these closures need a proper > consultation and pre implementation study followed > by a full post implementation study rather than > the council rushing them in under the guise of > "the moneys there now but we will lose it if we > don't spend it" then spending more money when they > have to, like Wandsworth , do a u-turn ! Thankyou Spartacus. So much of this is bang on. For the past weeks all the businesses have heard from customers is; 'It is too hard/takes too long to get to you' - - because of increased traffic on surrounding roads 'We can't park' --- as 1/3-1/2 parking spaces have gone at the same time to make room for road closure 'I would normally pop in on way back from Sainsburys (insert other shop) but too hard now' - as would have to go to Lordship Lane and turn right onto EDG and turn into MB Grove from the other end. All it takes is one very small barrier for people to not bother. It's why so many businesses have their doors open - it is well documented an open door is one less barrier to the customers and an invitation in. One business on Melbourne Grove says appointments are down 45% down in the past two weeks. They have been here for 24 years and never experienced such a sharp drop. This can't be purely coincidental. Yes, there is access from the other end of MG but what they are hearing is that those who do drive for very valid reasons, elderly, disabled, from further afield, or need car for a larger uncarryable load, multiple kids etc are not stopping any more. Customers are approaching the businesses of their own volition and saying, 'I am less likely to visit you'. We all agree car usage must go down, especially for short journeys but you need to make it easier for people to make the change - invest in an infrastructure that encourages active travel - put in some more cycle lanes, limit car owner ship, incentivise car share schemes, add in more useful bus routes, subsidise public transport further. If safety/speeding is the issue look at one ways, speed bumps, ANPR cameras, timed restrictions. Encourage people to use alternative methods with education and campaigning, but allow people the access they need when and where they need it, by car if they need to. Don't grab some money, block off some roads, cross your fingers and hope for the best. I am sure there will be some snippy replies 'Who cares about X cafe/restaurant/shop/hairdresser etc business', or more calls to boycott them by some kind residents but seriously, have a heart! Many have been operating here for over 15 years, and there are some brand new ones just trying to find their feet. They've all just seen their livelihoods take a battering with lockdown, probably another on its way. Let's not forget they have been totally sidelined when it comes to this scheme on these roads. No conversation whatsoever. Why should they have to wait 6 months to see if this 'beds in' and what if it doesn't? 6 months of watching their business die over key Christmas trading periods thanks to unconsulted road closures with lockdowns going on around them. Is now really the time to be experimenting with livelihoods in this way? We should be supportive and rally around local businesses with initiatives like the brilliant raffle scheme not tear into any that say, quite rightly, 'This is not OK'.

This is exactly why these planters and bollards need to be reviewed as a matter of actual emer(urgency). Please sign below pettions and contact your local councillor to let them know your feelings on this clearly unfit for purpose road scheme. Southwark Petition [moderngov.southwark.gov.uk] Petition [chng.it] to sign the petition. or copy and paste chng.it/k62TTfZD2G You can also voice your views here Streetspace East Dulwich : [eastdulwichstreetspace.commonplace.is] Email your councillors below; If you are comfortable including your address so they can be assured yours are the views of genuine locals. [email protected] - new - replaced Richard Livinstone [email protected] - new role Deputy Cabinet for Low Traffic Southwark [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] and [email protected] [email protected]

Hi, the petition is going very well, and there is a new petition now live on Southwarks website as well here; http://moderngov.southwark.gov.uk/mgEPetitionDisplay.aspx?id=500000049 I have also updated the original post as Richard Livingstone is no longer in his post, Councillor Catherine Rose is now in the role with a responsibility for Southwark roads. Also there is a new cabinet role for Low Traffic Southwark, and councillor responsible for that is Radha Burgess. Please also email them to let them know your concerns about these road closures. [email protected] [email protected]

Brilliant, lets spread annd share this every which way!

It's worth mentioning that every retail business on Melbourne Grove is a small independant (max 2 outlets in the case of the hairdressers), owner run by people living in the community, employing people in the community. Not only has the road closure already affected footfall - not all appointments are booked as they allow for walk-in's and these are down resulting in staff having to be sent home on occasion - they also lost at least 1/3 of parking spaces at the same time as the road closure AND the school intends to close the road in a different position which will prevent traffic for periods from the other end of Melbourne Grove. Yet none of the businesses have had any communication from the council on any of this. It's a shame that there is not more understanding given the businesses have only recently reopoened after lockdown and are trying to get on an even keel. On a sunny beautiful afternoon when people are out and about it is easy to forget that if the road closure stays as is it will be across winter when we experience the worst of British weather, dark afternoons and wet cold weather when people are least likely to opt for cycling and walking which could have a huge impact on the key Christmas trading period. It is obvious why they are worried and frustrated given that so far they have had no say in what has happened, how, when or where *before* it has happened. A suck it and see approach when people's livelihoods are involved is simply not good enough.

Is there much in this data and discussion about the role Google Maps and sat navs have to play in actively sending traffic down residential roads as well?

The question has been put and we hope to recieve some clear answers on how many houses and who was visited by whom and when, prior to these road closures as some houses definitely were visited by at least one councillor, by their own admission. Southwark Council and thus councillors have all of the businesses email addresses and postal addresses as they all pay business rates and they didn't email any of them. You don't have to leave your house to send an email.

I'd say so! It is getting lots of support. Signing the petition is NOT saying 'I want rat runs between East Dulwich and Dulwich Village ' It is NOT saying 'I want more cars, or I want more air pollution' It IS saying, 'I want a proper debate on how this is done' It IS saying 'I want joined up thinking and solutions that work for most' It IS saying, 'I want clearer air for all, not just a few' Sign here: www.chng.it/k62TTfZD2G

Posted by rahrahrah Today, 07:10AM Why would closing a street to motor traffic reduce footfall? Anyway, I hope business picks up, I wish you the best. reply: Hi, I don't think this has been closed just to monitor the traffic, as far as we know there are no traffic monitors on Grove Vale. If there are I would love to be wrong on this matter. It would show an attempt to at least gather some data now. And yes it is having an affect. We all have data, eg footfall and sales so we can tell empirically. TBH I am a mystified as to how the placement of the bollards at Melbourne Grove/Grove Vale is helping the residents acheive their aim for lower traffic and pollution as cars are still driving past them to get to the businesses. Far better for the 'experiment' to have placed them where the businesses stop and residential houses and school start and they may find they have no cars coming down except for access at all. Perhaps if there had been a discussion with the businesses this better option regards this trial may have cropped up.

Thanks dougiefreeman - hit nail in the head as far as I am concerned

Well stecoward101 you may have shocked everyone and done more than the council have by actually asking what the businesses might want. You may be my new best friend. *I only speak for myself* but I am not keen on rat runs. I am a mum of Primary school age children in East Dulwich and have the same concerns about pollution and traffic. My children will probably attend ED Charter. I think there are options, eg if bollards (which we have been advised could have been illegally placed and hence should be removed ahead of an actual proper consultation) or similar are agreeable, they could be placed further down Melbourne Grove allowing vehicular access to the businesses and school (if necessary) from the Grove Vale end. The school, who we have approached regards their concerns on pupil safety could be satisfied, there would be no or less through traffic from the Grove Vale end, covering where 90% of the residents homes are. The school are also looking at closing the road south of Jarvis Road which could trap residents, customers, business owners and delivery vehicles if the current bollards on Melbourne Grove/Grove Vale stay and this would cause more traffic issues at the East Dulwich Grove end of Melbourne Grove. Extra ideas could be turning Elsie/Derwent into one way roads to keep (much reduced) traffic moving through but without overloading the surrounding roads. I stress these are just my ideas and just specific to these roads. Guess this almost constitutes a consultation.... if only we could all have been having conversations like this prior to this action eh? Quite clever of the council getting us to do their job for them?

So you think businesses should be boycotted as they would like some consultation on what is happening outside their business? Who says we want a rat run? No one has bothered to ask us what we want. There are solutions that keep residents, and school children safe and businesses happy.

I do appreciate that.

I would like to reiterate the below for those of you who believe in democracy and agree that people should be consulted on these matters first. Please sign our online petition, and email your local councillors to express your views. You can also express your views on the specific road closures via an app I have copied in below. Please show us your support if you can. There are peoples livelihoods and health at stake. Please Follow us on twitter @GroveReopen and please retweet our tweets to any local journalists Petition [chng.it] to sign the petition. You can also voice your views here Streetspace East Dulwich : [eastdulwichstreetspace.commonplace.is] Email your councillors below; [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] and [email protected] [email protected]

I have and have had no reply.

I would like to reiterate the below for those of you who agree that people should be consulted on these matters first. Please sign our online petition, and email your local councillors to express your views. You can also express your views on the specific road closures via an app I have copied in below. Please show us your support if you can. There are peoples livelihoods and health at stake. Please Follow us on twitter @GroveReopen and please retweet our tweets to any local journalists Petition [chng.it] to sign the petition. You can also voice your views here Streetspace East Dulwich : [eastdulwichstreetspace.commonplace.is] Email your councillors below; [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] and [email protected] [email protected]

I would like to reiterate the below for those of you who believe in democracy and agree that people of East Dulwich should be consulted on these matters first. Please sign our online petition, and email your local councillors to express your views. You can also express your views on the specific road closures via an app I have copied in below. Please show us your support if you can. There are peoples livelihoods and health at stake. Please Follow us on twitter @GroveReopen and please retweet our tweets to any local journalists Petition [chng.it] to sign the petition. You can also voice your views here Streetspace East Dulwich : [eastdulwichstreetspace.commonplace.is] Email your councillors below; [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] and [email protected] [email protected]

I would like to reiterate the below for those of you who believe in democracy and agree that people should be consulted on these matters first. Please sign our online petition, and email your local councillors to express your views. You can also express your views on the specific road closures via an app I have copied in below. Please show us your support if you can. There are peoples livelihoods and health at stake. Please Follow us on twitter @GroveReopen and please retweet our tweets to any local journalists Petition [chng.it] to sign the petition. You can also voice your views here Streetspace East Dulwich : [eastdulwichstreetspace.commonplace.is] Email your councillors below; [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] and [email protected] [email protected]

TheCropolite, it may surprise you but as I run an eco shop I too want to limit car use. Personally I walk everywhere and barely use a car but a governing body needs to talk to the people affected before you put in bollards that are going to have an immediate impact on their livelihoods. And have some plans for the immediate increased pollution on the surrounding roads. I don't think 'you'll be greatful in years to come' is an adequate argument for immediate dangerous spikes in pollution around schools and total disregard for the businesses that operate from those roads.

Amen! As posted elsewhere it really does prove how little thought has indeed gone into this to not even account for emergency vehicle access.

I too would like to know this.

Totally agree, we can all have the same aim and surely everyone agrees that less traffic and lower pollution is a positive and achieveable aim, but we need to do it in a more clever nuanced way than this. With consultation. If Southwark have models and reports let's see them. Publish them, here and on their websites and in local papers for us all to peruse and see the data for ourselves. And sorry to say TheCropolite, I don't think any thought HAS gone into this. They have already had to remove one of planters today end of Mellbourne Grove/Grove Vale as emergency vehicles can't get through. The 'thinking' did not even extend to emergency vehicles access.

Hello there Cllr McAsh, I would like to know what consideration, if any, was given the disruption and potential loss of income to the businesses located on Melbourne Grove? If this is a back to front consultation, who sanctioned it? This suggests that if businesses suffer losses as a result of this plan, they just have to endure them for up to 18 months possibly longer if there is then a consultation process. Is this correct? Do you think this is an acceptable approach ever, and moreover acceptable now, given the appalling year the businesses have had already? I hope that you aware that businesses can fail within a matter of months if their customer base is limited, especially overnight. I am one of those business owners and I live a few minutes away from Melbourne Grove and have children in local primary schools. The ramifications of this plan are on our livelihoods, traffic and air pollution on surrounding roads and schools are incredibly distressing for myself and the broader community. I too would like to know where, when and how you are monitoring air pollution and traffic levels on closed and surrounding roads prior to this experiment and for its duration. As this is experimental the implication is that these can just as quickly be removed as placed, and I urge you to re-open Melbourne Grove/Grove Vale junction specifically urgently and if you wish to consult on putting them back in go ahead. But you must consult first and include the businesses in your consultation as a priority, alongside the broader local community. There are countless other options available to get closer to your objectives, other plans and schemes that could be explored that do not have such a sudden, indelicate and unsympathetic effect on the businesses and locals on these and surrounding roads.