Baby sleep just gets worse!

[snowboarder]

Just a general moan really - sorry I know we've been here before - just for some light relief amongst the midwife posts...

It seems that with each developmental 'stage' where sleep is supposed to improve, babySB bucks the trend and things just get harder!! Solids = no effect. Now hyper crawling and cruising = more awake at night and harder to settle than ever.

I'm wondering whether we just need to grit our teeth and stop all nighttime breastfeeding....but my hunch is he's not waking for food, he just wakes. And b/f helps him settle (a little bit).

Anyone got any success stories (I'm thinking on the lines of 'my baby hit 11 months and suddenly slept well'!) to help me keep positive? And I just can't get him to settle himself, so think we are just never going to sort this out. Just awful - newborn babies sleep better than babySB and I haven't slept properly in 10 months now. Tea and sympathy needed! (and pro plus...)....

[Moos]

Snowboarder, afraid I haven't any good advice, but I'm sure someone will be along with something useful. Just wanted to say I really sympathise and remember so well the frustration and helplessness, and it's so so hard. I really hope you get a breakthrough soon!

[Fuschia]

SB: as the mother of 3 breastfed, snacking at night cosleeping children... I am afraid that in my experience, although night time feeding is instinctive, snuggly, rich milk and an easy way to settle the baby down... I think there is a link between the waking and the milk. I don't think it's as easy as saying the bf is the cause of thew waking, I think it's a developmental stage of the brain/normal infant sleep patterns and a mother who sleeps with, offers bf at night to her baby is just doing what women have done for many thousands of years... but I do think many babies need to learn (when they're ready) to settle themselves at night (just as they need to learn to eat solids/self feed/use the toilet, when they're ready)

New born babies actually sleep better for the first 4m than many older children...it's to do with brain development.

Our twins still wake at night, at almost 2. IIRC, son no 1 stopped waking at about 2 1/2. Why then? I believe a toddler's sleep patterns gradually mature, reaching an adult pattern (longer sleep cycles and less frequent waking) by about aged 4... from aged 2 you can explain that milk isn't going to be on offer at night, and it can be understood (even if little SB objects)

Personally, I think aged 2+ is as early as I would want to go down the route of night-time milk refusal, but there are many sugegstions in the No Cry Sleep Solution, which no doubt you have read.

Have a look also at Margot Sunderland Science of Parenting (library has it)

and read this:

http://www.drjaygordon.com/development/ap/sleep.asp

even if you don't cosleep, this article has a lot of kind, gentle advice about night weaning for 1yo+

THis is interesting too:

http://blogcritics.org/culture/article/a-helping-hand-my-baby-wont/

Don't despair. THis won't last forever. You WILL sleep again. Our continuously waking child no 1 now sleeps like a log and didn't wake up even when we accidentally set off the burglar alarm!

As the second link says

The days are long (or in your case, the nights) but the years are short

[snowboarder]

I tried not to feed him last night (for about half an hour at first wake) and he got hysterical.

It's not so much that he wakes, I understand the theories (i think!) but it's the number and frequency of wakes and the fact it takes pretty much half an hour at least to resettle. Eg - (although hate listing it as sounds a bit like boasting!!) last night he woke at 11, 1.30, 2.30 and 4.30 and then 6am for the day. A pretty bad night but not exceptional. It's too much on me and he's cranky...(we don't co-sleep - to wriggly and he thinks it's play time!).

Oh. 2.5 yrs. Will have look at links Fuschia thenkyou!

[womanofdulwich]

Fuschia

You sound a complete saint. How on earth do you manage? How do you get up in the mornings?

YOu sound a completely dedicated mother.

I am in awe!

[Fuschia]

They sleep with me, as a rule I hardly stir when they wake. I most certainly DO feel it when they're ill... actually the last two weeks there has been a lot of properly disturbed sleep and I am in hibernation mode! I think I'm just philosophical. I don't feel that I am judged as a mother on whether they "sleep through" so I just accept it as a mothering inconvenience, like the early explosive nappies were, and never being able to go to the toilet in peace. Having an older child, I have it in perspective, at the time it lasts forever, when you look back it went in a flash...

I would rather wake than do CC or anything like that. We are at the point now where with son no 1 we said "no more milk at night" and Mr F dealt with the resulting night time complaints for a few weeks... just not quite sure when or how tackle it as we have two. In the meantime I am appreciating it, in a way.... nighttime when they are warm and sleepy and they mutter "mummy!" half asleep then give a happy little sigh and snuggle so happily... so fleeting....

But in short, I manage because we cosleep, I think, and our sleep patterns are meshed.

[Smiler]

Hi ladies,

Many sympathies snowboarder. My daughter is nearly two and has only just started sleeping through some nights, and we still have some bad ones. Sorry, know you would like "success stories", but I do have a couple of ideas.

After a lot of thought I packed in breastfeeding at around your stage, as I just couldn't cope with the bf hormones (which really whacked me out) AND sleepless nights, and also felt that she was hungry at night/ getting a bit skinny (though she liked her solids). The decision was for me rather than her, but I reasoned that it wouldn't benefit anyone for me to be exhausted, depressed and ill. I started by giving her a big bottle of the dreaded formula before bed, which did improve things somewhat. She has always been and remains a total milk fiend!

Co-slept for a while longer, which has pros and cons.

If I have any advice, it would be to ensure that your partner pulls his weight at night and does at least a couple of nights a week to give you a break. It is very hard, not to mention bad for health and sanity, to be sleep deprived for long periods. I originally had this idea that because I wasn't at work I should do all of the nights (and of course the breast-feeding was also a factor), but really regretted it as I hadn't realised just how hard and relentless night-wakings (and looking after a baby all day) are. My husband was sprightly and going for ten-mile runs, going for nights out, looking good, while I was a total zombie wreck, and realised that this wasn't quite right!

It took a few arguments in our case, but was worth it. If you can, on the nights he has the baby, go to a different room - away from the baby - to sleep, or get him to stay in the nursery. Do not, whatever you hear, get up! You may be lying there awake sometimes, but at least your body is resting. We had a rule that he would come to me if he needed help, I wouldn't go to them.

Getting a couple of better nights sleep each week made a big difference to me, and my husband also came up with some good ideas about improving her sleep, which he then implemented (he had her for the first few nights when we withdrew milk in the night, for example, and changed the bedtime routine). I was just too exhausted to do this stuff and would have cracked when she cried!

Also agree with Fuschia that it can be stressful to think in terms of what the baby "should" be doing re. sleep - I shifted to a more "what will be will be" attitude and it made it a little easier to handle.

There WILL be a time when you will sleep again! Best wishes.

[Fuschia]

SB: a lot of good advice there from Smiler. Even if you don't want to stop bf fullstop, you could nightwean now (using the Nightweaning article as the basis of your approach) with Mr SB having the baby from midnight-6am for eg and dealing with any wakings.

Or stick it out a while longer, maybe with you going to bed at 8-9pm a couple of nights a week and scheduling a lie in at the weekend and an afternoon nap as well.

Mr SB does have to step up to the plate and sacrifice some sleep (if he hasn't already) so you can recharge your batteries. Also call in help from anyone else you can.

[Bobbaz]

I'm sure I'll get a barage of counter-replies to this but controlled crying really worked for me. Start with a few minutes and work your way up. I genuinely think this is harder for the parents than the baby! Myself and several friends have used this method and if you stick to it have generally found results within 1-2 weeks. Good luck!

[laurac]

Snowboarder

I think the advice from Smiler is incredibly helpful - constantly being woken in the night has a horrific effect on you and a couple of nights 'better' sleep a week will make a big difference to how you feel and cope in the day.

I was in a similar position to you with my daughter - her sleep was actually worst at 8-10 months when she would wake every half hour/hour after going down at 7pm (to my shame I always fed her back to sleep) until about 10/11pm after which she would generally wake about 3/4 more times during the night. At around this time I started to co-sleep with her which made things a little better but not much - I would still be feeding her about 3 times a night. Not sure if helpful information but at 14 months I stopped breast-feeding her (over an Easter w/end so my partner was around in the day). The first night there was some distress but not as much as I had feared although because I was sleeping with her I guess this might have made it easier. By the third night she was waking once for a sip of water and going back to sleep.

Obviously my daughter was older than your son which meant I could explain why I was refusing her to some extent and I would not say to you this is your only option for a better nights sleep but it is what worked for me and if I could go back I would have done it much sooner. I would definitely take on Snowboarders advice though and try and get your partner to take on the nights a couple of times a week although this would also mean the end to the night-feeding??

[snowboarder]

Thanks for all the advice. Will sit and think properly once the monster has gone to bed tonight - we do at least get an evening to ourselves at the moment!

Bobbaz - I think controlled crying is tricky and really really depends on your baby's character. I've basically spent the last 10 months trying to calm babySB who cried A LOT in the early days and has not been easy....now he's actually pretty good during the day and quite a happy little character. But he can cry for 2 hours plus in the car. I both don't think it will work, and I also think I've spent this long trying to NOT let him cry, so it would be v confusing now to start leaving him to do just that...

I am assured it can have results though...

Fuschia - you are amazing at being sure that your way is the best for you and your babies. I am so easily swayed and do feel that am rubbish mum because he doesn't sleep 'properly'. MrSB is currently working late into the small hours so tricky to get him to help...but yes when we did that a bit before christmas things did get a little better.

[Smiler]

More man-bashing from me: working late/hard doesn't mean that men should get out of helping with kids at night! Mr Smiler similarly worked/still works v.long hours, which was another reason I didn't push him to do any nights 'til I was on my last legs - but with a small child men should expect to have to make changes in their working lives (after all, we do, much more!) If he is working at home, for example, he could settle the baby if he is up anyway at night to work. Or if he is in the office all the time in the week perhaps he could help at the weekends so you can catch up then.

I have become militant about this after a lot of thought / fuming with my female friends and family. Sometimes think that women do a lot to protect their men and that the men don't always reciprocate!

It doesn't help that employers can be unreasonable and that the economic climate means everyone feels insecure about their jobs.

Rant over.

You are not a rubbish mum! Some stuff is just not within our control. Maybe our little ones are just the party animals - mine will happily party til 10 or 11pm at weddings, family gatherings etc., literally on the dancefloor - and in their teens will be out til the small hours. You can bet it'll be the dads waiting up then (I intend to be sleeping like a baby)!

[Moos]

Just want to add that it's so, so important not to blame yourself for either your baby not sleeping, or how tired you feel. Some mothers and babies (and Fuschia is amazing and inspirational) manage to thrive on the night-feeding and others don't. You aren't "not coping" because you are sleeping badly and exhausted, and someone else is not. It's wonderful if you can keep up the night feeding (if your baby doesn't wake you much and settles quickly) but if that's not working out, don't blame yourself and don't put yourself last. You are so clearly not a rubbish mum, but a dedicated and loving mum who's trying to do the best for her baby, even though it's really hard for her. You're fantastic!

[Fuschia]

But Moos, I don't really wake up, that's the thing! I just mutter and give them a hug and zonk back out again. Perish the thought I might have to get out of bed!! I am as mardy as the next mum if I really do get disreupted sleep.. and it sounds like SB's life is really beginning to suffer, so I don't think there's any role for martyrdom!! :-)

[snowboarder]

Umm yes I get out of bed and pad downstairs to babySB's room. Cold and not conducive to good nights sleep!! Mostly I am relatively philosophical about it (or try to be!) but also get these moments where I think OH NO this can't go on!

Moos thank you for lovely comments....isn't it funny how much forum support there is where sometimes there is not so much in 'real' life.

The nightweaning process - sounds hard hard hard but seems good combination of gentle approach mixed with a bit of tough love. He does emphasise they should be over 12 months though....

[hanstands]

I hardly ever post about this kind of thing as I've never been that sure about the way I've done/do nighttime with my baby but I have kind of followed/faltered through it by following my intuition. The not so good news for you SB is that my 17 month old still wakes about five times a night every night and has gone through phases of every half hour/hour and out the other side a few times. ATM its around every two-three hours so I'm getting more sleep. Similar to what F says I think its related to brain development and night-breastfeeding. As for advice, all I can say is that the two things that have made it do-able for me is that my husband gets up with baby in the morning almost every morning and gets him dressed and gives him breakfast [husband tends to go to bed early the night before and I tend to get a lie in in the morning]. The second thing is that we took one side off baby's cot and put rest of cot next to our bed so we have space to sleep without kicking one another but I don;t have to get up to re-settle through the night. I have considered night weaning alot and am still considering it now. I also feel since my baby turned 16 months that he could deal with it alot better now than prior to that if we did choose to night wean. If I night wean I will re-post to let you know. I really understand how hard it must be for you but I think you are amazing for getting up and out of bed so many times every night - WOW - I know I couldn;t do that. Your baby is very fortunate to have a Mum with such unbelievable patience. Hope it gets easier for you sometime very soon one way or another...xx

[KBN]

Snowboarder, we have PMed about this, so you know that my little one now sleeps v well after we had a night nanny in to help, but she was up every hour and a half for 6 months,and I know your pain.

A couple of things that helped for us: my hubby would getup early than he needed to for work eg 6, and have littleun till 8/815 so i could at least get 2 hours just before getting up: made a HUGE difference to the dead in the morning thing - the saint still does this betweenn 8 adn 830 now so i have half an hour of sweet dozing, even after a full night's sleep.

I also agree that the waking is due to feeding: a lot of babies use something as a crutch to lull them back to sleep, and baby SB might wake naturally at the end of a sleep cycle, and feeding is something that helps him to sleep. When we were cutting down the feeds, my hubby would go to her, not me, for a few nights, then I would go, pick her up and hold her to me, but not feed her. Then pick her up but not hold her in a BF position, then not pick her up, and soon she dropped that waking slot.

And the being swayed by everyone and thing - that is because you are tired, I promise! I remember doing it - back and forth and back and forth.. It is nothing to do with being a rubbish mum!

Good luck with it all and I really hope it improves soon!

[Moos]

Fuschia Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

so I

> don't think there's any role for martyrdom!! :-)

No, absolutely - wasn't implying you were a martyr - rather the opposite, you've obviously made co-sleeping work really well for you and your babies, and your sleep rhythms have tuned in together. Was just trying in my clumsy way to say to SB that she shouldn't feel bad for feeling exhausted and as though she 'ought to be coping better' - a guilt reflex I remember very well from my little non-sleeper. I too was a mum who did a lot of night-time bfing in baby's room, nodding off in an armchair or (oh dear) forlornly playing 3am solitaire on my phone.

If it helps at all, Moosling now aged 2 is a great sleeper and loves to be in bed.

If you can afford it, I do agree that a night nanny as a temporary measure to help you if you do decide to wean snowboarderlet off night feeding would be a great idea - or anyone kind and supportive who's willing to muck in and obey your every instruction... You'll need a store of energy and determination to do it so help sounds like a good idea.

Hope it gets better soon, as you say there are lots of supportive vibes coming from this board!

[Fuschia]

Moos Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Fuschia Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> so I

> > don't think there's any role for martyrdom!!

> :-)

>

> No, absolutely - wasn't implying you were a martyr

> - rather the opposite, you've obviously made

> co-sleeping work really well for you and your

> babies, and your sleep rhythms have tuned in

> together.

Yes, that's what i was trying to say.. what i meant was, I don't feel like (usually) I am sleep deprived... poor SB obviously is, and just because some of us muddle through with waking babies doesn't mean SB should feel inadequate somehow if she is desperate for something to change!

[Fuschia]

PS Can we help you at all SB... do you ever get to nap in the day? Could someone have baby SB for an hour or two? xx

[ryedalema]

Oh wow - I had no idea there was such a thing as a 'night nanny', how much does someone like that cost roughly?

SB - I feel your pain and wish you all the very best as you begin the, hopefully, not too slow climb out of this.

I'm in a kind of bizarre co-sleeping conundrum right now. I'm co-sleeping with our newbie (8 weeks) and have her Moses basket next to my side of the bed and can lift her in and out pretty well without risk of mishap in the night when she wants a feed, either that or she sleeps between my husband and I and I can feed her lying on my side - which is brilliant as sometimes I fall asleep with her still attached and she just takes herself off when she's finished and goes back to sleep herself.

But then - 2.6 year old daughter gets jealous about the three of us being together next door, so comes in and either it's 4 in a bed, or Mum has to go on the bunk beds with her.

Then baby starts mewing and I'm back in 'our' bed.

This is all until OH starts complaining about not getting any 'cuddles' with me and then it gets even more complicated.

Apart from the clear crimes against parenthood that I'm obviously committing - I, at least, can empathise with you!

[nunheadmum]

I was just thinking last night when my LO was shouting in the night that I would post on this about Night Nannies. We used them when my second one was about 4 months - it had taken us till 18 months to get our first through the night at all and at 2.5yrs she was still waking about 3 out of 5 nights and our second had started waking about every hour and needing milk to get back off. We were utterly exhausted.

They aren't cheap - about 100 quid a night. But sooooooo worth it and it only took 2 nights of input - indeed the second was a bit of a waste as my LO decided to sleep through!. There was lots of talking around the issues too - before we took her on to agree an approach, in between the actual night visits and afterwards - which weren't billed but worth so much. In our case - perhaps a little like you Snowboarder - we had daytime issues too and they were ultimately linked. The Nanny helped me to trust my instincts and ignore all those little niggly doubts that ended up leading me into the problems we'd been having. We did use controlled crying but it didn't last long (about 1/2 hour max) and was so much easier to handle with a professional reassuring you. And in the end, one night of crying saved so many shorter bouts which normally happened during the day. Afterwards my LO was so much happier when she was awake.

I'm happy to tell you more if you want. But if the price isn't a deterrent I would say it's well worth investigating. It's not a one solution fits all approach - it is tailored to your needs and those of your little one. It really helped me to stop feeling that I was a useless mum. And my little one slept so much better.....and more importantly, so did we.

For more info on this go to www.night-nannies.com

[snowboarder]

Thank you all again. Yep am investigating the night nannies but sceptical re the controlled cryin solution that they do seem to employ - albeit tailored to your baby - maybe if we could agree a gentler approach sim to night-weaning in F's article...ANyway - an option.

Lovely lovely to think it could be possible to ask someone to take babySB - you know though during the day I feel fine - I just DREAD and hate 10pm onwards! Anyone fancy a little one for a sleepover!!!!!

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

Poor you! I don't really know what to advise as it is amazing how strong willed these little people can be, and how little sleep THEY can survive on. My son is almost six months and likes to go to sleep between 11pm to 1am, he absolutely refuses to go down before then, and when I do put him down, he will just simply wake up, and then refuse to go back down properly until his usual hour of midnight. He wakes up at 10-11am in the morning, never wakes up before and when I wake him, he is absolutely grumpy and goes back to sleep again, so I give up...for now!!

He is breastfed too, and like Fushia, I co sleep, I have to because he does awake about three or four times in the night for a feed and if he was in his cot, he would wake up fully to get my attention for a feed thus coming completely out of his sleep, and not to mention I too would be awake completely having to get out of my warm bed, brave the cold to take him out of his cot and feed him, thus refusing in it taking longer for BOTH of us to get to sleep. With co sleeping, we both are constantly in a state of sleep, as soon as he starts stirring, I just feed him whilst still in a light sleep and then we both go back to sleep properly, no tears, none of us fully awake and both of us able to face the day and remain sane!! I would never have been able to breastfeed this long if I had to keep going to his cot from day one.

I am not a fan of controlled crying and I don't intends to try it not at least he is old enough to understand what it is all about instead of being shocked into realising no one is coming to attends to his needs so he might as well sleep. I know these babies are not damaged by it, but I don't like and as a nanny I would never try it on my charges or my son. Have you tried the pick up and put down? Obviously I cannot advise too much as my own son does not go down at an hour I like but I am pretty much baby led until they are of an age they can understand, though co sleeping keeps me sane and enables me to get a decent enough sleep to function.

I have to say re the naps, not ALL babies nap. I have known quite a few babies who have never napped and refuses to, but they do go down early and sleep all the way through.

Have your parents or someone had baby SB overnight? Usually you find most kids are well behaved for others and will sleep through so it is worth seeing what they do and if you do it differently.

Not much to add but I hope you get some decent sleep, not easy is it?!

[BernieG]

Check out a book called 'The No Cry Sleep Solution' it's full of lots of tips for tackling a range of different sleep issues. It's a lovely book that helps you realise that babies aren't all supposed to sleep for 12 hours without waking up and that there are other methods that should be considered before resorting to controlled crying.

Good luck.