Naughty Bradley Wiggins ?

[rendelharris]

Mick Mac Wrote:

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> From Wikipedia:

>

> "These included three intramuscular injections of

> the drug triamcinolone ? a powerful corticosteroid

> which has been described as a huge performance

> enhancer.

>

> This is the same performance enhancing drug which

> Lance Armstrong was convicted of using"

Hate to contradict Wiki, but this from today's Telegraph:

Dr Brian Lipworth, of the Scottish Centre for Respiratory Research, said, however, that he believed there was ?no scientific reason? why a drug like triamcinolone would be performance-enhancing.

?An anabolic steroid like testosterone puts on muscle mass but this is a catabolic steroid which breaks down muscle,? said Lipworth, who sits on the WHO guidelines committee ARIA.

Ian Pavord, a Professor of Respiratory Medicine at the University of Oxford, said he too doubted injected triamcinolone could help athletic performance as it would ?reduce proximal muscle mass?.

Stephen Durham, the Head of Section for Allergy and Clinical Immunology at NHLI, Imperial College and Professor of Allergy and Respiratory Medicine at Royal Brompton Hospital London, said that to the best of his knowledge it would not aid performance.

[Mick Mac]

From Time magazine (reference Lance Armstrong - although LA took other performance enhancers too)

Corticosteroids (e.g., cortisone). These drugs reduce inflammation, assist in recovery and can provide a burst of energy and create a temporary feeling of increased energy and well-being. Throughout the relevant time period, corticosteroids were improperly provided to cyclists by team doctors and trainers to increase energy and enhance performance. ? USADA will also rely upon firsthand testimony from witnesses who were aware of Armstrong?s use of cortisone without medical authorization.

[Blah Blah]

Drugs taken in combination with others behave differently than on their own. This is why there is no use comparing those who deliberately cheat with combinations of drugs over those being perscribed single drugs for underlying conditions. Asthma, it has to be remembered, kills people. And athletes at that level are putting huge stress on their bodies. Personally, I trust the medical professionals who draw up the rules to make the right call on these issues.

[rendelharris]

Mick Mac Wrote:

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> From Time magazine (reference Lance Armstrong -

> although LA took other performance enhancers too)

>

>

> Corticosteroids (e.g., cortisone). These drugs

> reduce inflammation, assist in recovery and can

> provide a burst of energy and create a temporary

> feeling of increased energy and well-being.

> Throughout the relevant time period,

> corticosteroids were improperly provided to

> cyclists by team doctors and trainers to increase

> energy and enhance performance. ? USADA will also

> rely upon firsthand testimony from witnesses who

> were aware of Armstrong?s use of cortisone without

> medical authorization.

The key there is "improperly provided to cyclists by team doctors and trainers to increase energy and enhance performance" - Armstrong was taking them every day illegally, Wiggins a) took them with full approval of the UCI anti-doping unit and b) three times (as far as we know) in his whole career. Corticosteroids are frequently and legitimately used in sports medicine not only for asthma/allergy treatment but for tendon and ligament damage, for example. Wiggins' approved use was the equivalent of a sherry at Christmas compared to Armstrong's bottle of scotch a day.

As you've probably guessed, I am a fan of Wiggins, but I can't say categorically that he's never cheated - what one can say is that what has been revealed to date is not cheating.

[Mick Mac]

I can say that this thread was never to be about cheating. That's why its called Naughty Bradley Wiggins.

What I wanted to debate was the TUEs.

[Saffron]

The dose and frequency of corticosteroid administration, combined with personal metabolism, would determine whether it had an enhancing effect on metabolism, beyond its respiratory use. It's not inherently performance enhancing.

Symptoms of asthma do remit and reappear years later, often worse. It's thought that this is because the inflammatory actions of the disease progress silently even when broncho-spasm is not clinically present.

Perhaps universal transparency of TUEs, but then where does that leave patient confidentiality? Some kind of better internal control maybe?

Athletes have illnesses. How should they be treated?

[Otta]

It's no surprise that the British press will find people to speak in favour of their national treasure. They need national treasures to deflect from, you know, how shit everything is.

[rendelharris]

Otta Wrote:

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> It's no surprise that the British press will find

> people to speak in favour of their national

> treasure. They need national treasures to deflect

> from, you know, how shit everything is.

Damn, so anything good that happens (for example the first British man to win the Tour de France and, as far as the evidence of even date has it, winning it clean) is a coverup by the press to distract us from how shit everything is? I've been blind.

[Otta]

Never said that. But I very much doubt they'd be too quick to condemn, having put him on a pedestal.

[rendelharris]

Otta Wrote:

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> Never said that. But I very much doubt they'd be

> too quick to condemn, having put him on a

> pedestal.

You may be right, though the reporting I've seen thus far is far from fawning, if anything leaning the other way, saying his reputation has been damaged and he has questions to answer (e.g. Daily Mail, "Injections, flare-ups and the vital questions still dog Sir Bradley Wiggins while he does not explain himself," Guardian, "Bradley Wiggins faces a fight for his reputation in wake of Wada hack"). Don't forget the one thing the press love more than setting someone up on a pedestal is then to knock them off it!

[Alan Medic]

So Bradley had the injections for his 'illness' to allow him to compete on a level playing field. I'm of the opinion that even it it isn't breaking any rules it shouldn't be allowed. Either you are physically capable of competing at that level or you aren't. If I wanted to race in the Tour de France on a level playing field they would have to take away the bicycles from the others. Oh yeah, they would have take the mountains out of it too. They aren't level.

[rendelharris]

Alan Medic Wrote:

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> So Bradley had the injections for his 'illness' to

> allow him to compete on a level playing field. I'm

> of the opinion that even it it isn't breaking any

> rules it shouldn't be allowed. Either you are

> physically capable of competing at that level or

> you aren't. If I wanted to race in the Tour de

> France on a level playing field they would have to

> take away the bicycles from the others. Oh yeah,

> they would have take the mountains out of it too.

> They aren't level.

Well yeah, if it wasn't allowed it would be against the rules...and I tend to agree that it should be, the point is that it's not. The question of what should or shouldn't be allowed is moot, I went for a forty mile ride this morning, because of arthritis there's no way I could have made it without liberally dosing myself with cocodamol first, so I suppose that certainly enhanced my performance! I like the idea of a flat TdF though - great phrase in one of the Reggie Perrin books: "It's all about challenge, who'd climb Everest if it was flat?" "Well, me and Mrs.Smith would, it'd be just about our mark."

[Mick Mac]

My view of performance enhancing is something that taken by an athlete who didn't suffer from ill health, would enhance his performance.

Would cocodomol do that ?

[Mick Mac]

And for Bradley and team Sky, once David Walsh is accusing you, as he clearly is in the Times today, your card is marked and reputation affected.

[Alan Medic]

I can only presume that Wiggins knows what he took was performance enhancing as why else would he say it allowed him to perform on a level playing field. However if he didn't break any rules then the rules need to be looked at.

[Loz]

Alan Medic Wrote:

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> I can only presume that Wiggins knows what he took was performance enhancing as why else would he say

> it allowed him to perform on a level playing field.

I reckon that was code for "everyone was doing it, so I had to as well".

> However if he didn't break any rules then the rules need to be looked at.

Agreed.

[rendelharris]

Mick Mac Wrote:

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> My view of performance enhancing is something that

> taken by an athlete who didn't suffer from ill

> health, would enhance his performance.

> Would cocodomol do that ?

Therein lies the problem, cocodamol (don't know if it's banned or not) allows me to perform at around the level I would be at if I didn't have arthritis, so it's putting me at a roughly normal (as far as I can be!) level. Wiggins claims to have bad asthma and that the injections were doing the same for him. The best thing for him to do if he wants to (and if he can) clear his name is to release a full medical report from an independent doctor proving he really has got chronic asthma, whether he can, or can be bothered, remains to be seen.

[Alan Medic]

I there a reason you need to take it to allow you to cycle, otherwise what's the point?

[rendelharris]

Alan Medic Wrote:

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> I there a reason you need to take it to allow you

> to cycle, otherwise what's the point?

Cocodamol? Yes, or the pain in wrists and knees after ten miles becomes intolerable. So with Brad, if he can prove he would have a severe asthma attack without the drugs, fair enough, but that seems damned unlikely given the infrequency of his admitted treatments. I can feel my faith smouldering at the edges...

[Mick Mac]

Froome questions Wiggins...

Froome added his use of the corticosteroid prednisolone in tablet form in 2014 ? which, like Wiggins?s TUEs, was leaked by the Fancy Bears hackers ? should be seen in a different light to Wiggins?s triamcinolone injections. ?In 2014, I had an asthma exacerbation following the prologue at the Tour de Romandie. I had serious trouble breathing, which was visible to everyone, including journalists who tried to interview me after the stage.

?The team applied for an emergency TUE for a short course of prednisolone. This is the standard treatment for post-infection inflammation in asthmatics that cannot be controlled by standard inhalers. I don?t believe that there are any alternative treatments, ? and performance enhancement is negligible.

?With regards to Wiggins?s TUEs, questions remain over his symptoms, the choice of treatment and the related performance benefits from that treatment.?

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/oct/18/chris-froome-questions-remain-bradley-wiggins-tues-use-cycling

[rendelharris]

You do have to remember that Wiggins and Froome absolutely hate each other...

[Otta]

I posted about the Wiggins thing on facebook the other day. I was quite funny watching the big cycling fans jump to his defence. He is something of a saint to them it seems.

I wasn't calling him guilty by the way. But I did say that if you need any non standard (like inhalers) drug to put you on a "level playing field" with elite athletes, then PERHAPS you're just not physically cut out to be an elite athlete.

[Mick Mac]

rendelharris Wrote:

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> You do have to remember that Wiggins and Froome

> absolutely hate each other...

And that could be related to the title of this thread..

[Mick Mac]

Froome's input is necessary as he seeks to differentiate his asthma treatment from Wiggins'

He states that he had clear and visible symptoms for which he received the appropriate post asthma treatment

He clearly points the finger at Wiggins' symptons/choice of treatment/performance benefits

Chris Hoy has also said that Wiggins needs to answer questions

It seems others in British cycling are keen not to be tarnished with the same brush.

[Jeremy]

Otta Wrote:

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> if you need any non standard (like inhalers) drug to put you on a "level playing

> field" with elite athletes, then PERHAPS you're

> just not physically cut out to be an elite athlete.

I have to disagree with that... plenty of asthmatics need something more powerful than their regular inhalers now and again. Would be sad if we had to tell people they couldn't follow their dream because of a treatable condition.