BREXIT: Why so personal?

[red devil]

DulwichFox Wrote:

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> You really are not a nice person. But I am not

> going to be dragged down to your level handing out

> personal insults.

You just did :)...

[uncleglen]

sjsl Wrote:

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> Because it's not just a discussion, both sides

> know that the outcome will have real and long

> lasting repercussions, and are really frustrated

> that the other side doesn't see the dangers...

> guess we'll just have to wait to see who gets to

> say 'told you so' as the country

> flourishes/plunges into the abyss.

Just about sums it up.

[DulwichFox]

DaveR Wrote:

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> All he said was that everything you posted above

> (to the extent it was factual) was wrong, as a

> matter of verifiable history. He wasn't the only

> one to say that, because it was wrong. The idea

> that the UK in 1973 was 'the most powerful place

> on Earth' or was a world leader in the industries

> that you cite is so wrong that it's laughable.

I wrote 'was for centuaries the most powerful place on Earth. ' so was not just talking pre 1973..

I just cannot be bothered to write reams and reams about the industrial history of the UK.

The rot was evident before 1973 but the Thatcher and Europe hammered in the final nails in the coffin..

After joining The now E.U. there was no way back.. but NOW there is a glimmer of hope.. Nissan producing cars

here in the U.K with 1,000's of jobs.. is a great start and is a kick in the teeth to the remain mob who

want this country to fail just to prove they were right... Ludites.. Sabouters..

But they won't win.

The best oportunity in 40 years to make this country a World leader again.

So you just sit there laughing and let those who have the skills do their job.

Let us select the best Doctors..Surgeons..Enginneers.. Scientists..whatever from arond the World to come and work here.

DulwichFox

[P.O.U.S.theWonderCat]

Why would they want to come to work in a country facing recession where a very nasty anti-immigrant sentiment has been unleashed?

[DulwichFox]

P.O.U.S.theWonderCat Wrote:

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> Why would they want to come to work in a country

> facing recession where

a very nasty anti-immigrant sentiment has been unleashed?

Where... ? It may of Highlighted a nasty anti-immigrant sentiment that has existed for decades.

but it has never detered people from other parts of the world wanting to come here.

The Whole world is in recession.. take a look at the USA. and the rest of Europe..

DulwichFox.

[Jeremy]

DulwichFox Wrote:

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> Nissan producing cars

> here in the U.K with 1,000's of jobs.. is a great

> start and is a kick in the teeth to the remain mob

Well it's only a medium term commitment (the next models will be produced for how long, five years)? Possibly the current weak pound helped persuade them.

[JohnL]

Jeremy Wrote:

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> DulwichFox Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Nissan producing cars

> > here in the U.K with 1,000's of jobs.. is a

> great

> > start and is a kick in the teeth to the remain

> mob

>

> Well it's only a medium term commitment (the next

> models will be produced for how long, five years)?

> Possibly the current weak pound helped persuade

> them.

TM is quite 'I know best/Paternalistic (Maternalistic) in her Toryism.

(Ironically what Leavers call Remainers)

I wouldn't put it past her to have a secret assurance to Nissan.

[Jeremy]

JohnL Wrote:

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> I wouldn't put it past her to have a secret

> assurance to Nissan.

Well yes, I have no doubt there was a deal of some sort..

[Loz]

DulwichFox Wrote:

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> I just cannot be bothered to write reams and reams

> about the industrial history of the UK.

> The rot was evident before 1973 but the Thatcher

> and Europe hammered in the final nails in the

> coffin..

The rot was *evident*? The UK's reign as a world power declined and then ceased in the decade or so following WW2. By 1973 it was on its knees.

> The best oportunity in 40 years to make this country a World leader again.

The UK (well, England) was a power because it has an empire. It doesn't any more. It will never again compete with Russia, China and the US as a world leader, no matter how much you dream.

But, as part of the EU, it at least had a chance of being part of something that might have developed into being a world leader. We are now destined for a future of mid-table mediocrity. If we're lucky.

With a good fortune and (ha!) strong leadership we might come out of this relatively unscathed, but we also may just plunge the country into a very long and deep malaise, for no real benefit.

But, whatever happens, we won't be lunching at the top table ever again.

[JohnL]

Loz Wrote:

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> DulwichFox Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

>

> > I just cannot be bothered to write reams and

> reams

> > about the industrial history of the UK.

> > The rot was evident before 1973 but the

> Thatcher

> > and Europe hammered in the final nails in the

> > coffin..

>

> The rot was *evident*? The UK's reign as a world

> power declined and then ceased in the decade or so

> following WW2. By 1973 it was on its knees.

>

> > The best oportunity in 40 years to make this

> country a World leader again.

>

> The UK (well, England) was a power because it has

> an empire. It doesn't any more. It will never

> again compete with Russia, China and the US as a

> world leader, no matter how much you dream.

>

> But, as part of the EU, it at least had a chance

> of being part of something that might have

> developed into being a world leader. We are now

> destined for a future of mid-table mediocrity. If

> we're lucky.

>

> With a good fortune and (ha!) strong leadership we

> might come out of this relatively unscathed, but

> we also may just plunge the country into a very

> long and deep malaise, for no real benefit.

>

> But, whatever happens, we won't be lunching at the

> top table ever again.

Goodbye to the permanent seat on the security council.

Not yet - but a few years down the line. France's seat may mutate to EU.

[P.O.U.S.theWonderCat]

DulwichFox Wrote:

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> P.O.U.S.theWonderCat Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Why would they want to come to work in a

> country

> > facing recession where

>

> a very nasty anti-immigrant sentiment has been

> unleashed?

>

> Where... ? It may of Highlighted a nasty

> anti-immigrant sentiment that has existed for

> decades.

> but it has never detered people from other parts

> of the world wanting to come here.

>

> The Whole world is in recession.. take a look at

> the USA. and the rest of Europe..

>

> DulwichFox.

The whole world isn't in recession. The US GDP is expected to have risen by the end of this quarter, for a start. If you're going to post such ridiculous assertions, verify them.

I don't deny that the nasty sentiments have existed for some time, but Brexit has "legitimised" the open expression of it in an unprecedented way. Reported hate crimes are up 41% post-Brexit (see, for instance: https://www.ft.com/content/9b2ec1a6-912c-11e6-a72e-b428cb934b78). Many current immigrants (my family included) have experienced anti-immigrant hostility since the referendum and are reconsidering our future here.

Don't delude yourself. Just because you aren't experiencing doesn't mean it's not happening Foxy.

Edited to include quote.

[????]

DulwichFox Wrote:

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> P.O.U.S.theWonderCat Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Why would they want to come to work in a

> country

> > facing recession where

>

> a very nasty anti-immigrant sentiment has been

> unleashed?

>

> Where... ? It may of Highlighted a nasty

> anti-immigrant sentiment that has existed for

> decades.

> but it has never detered people from other parts

> of the world wanting to come here.

>

> The Whole world is in recession.. take a look at

> the USA. and the rest of Europe..

>

> DulwichFox.

No it's not - you ignoramus.

You really need to understand the difference between opinion - which you have plenty of and facts which you seem to have few of...but we've been here a zillion times before*

*opinion not fact

[rendelharris]

Jeremy Wrote:

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>

> Well it's only a medium term commitment (the next

> models will be produced for how long, five years)?

> Possibly the current weak pound helped persuade

> them.

And, important though it is, Nissan's commitment will only safeguard 7,000 extant jobs, with "possibly hundreds" to be created in the future. Excellent news for those working there but in terms of the general economic picture, pretty meaningless. One of Japan's top business strategists - indeed the man who advised Nissan to set up the Sunderland plant - has called it "a minor decision by one company" and does not believe other companies will follow suit: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37835797

[Lordship 516]

Boris' Titanic success has had its first scrape with the iceberg..!

Great High Court decision - precise & supporting actual democracy.

Difficult to see how government can overturn this.

This will result in Brexit terms having to be brought before Parliament

- long time before A50 happens.

[red devil]

Perhaps they will now take the case to the European Court of Justice... :)

[jaywalker]

Lordship 516 Wrote:

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> Boris' Titanic success has had its first scrape

> with the iceberg..!

>

> Great High Court decision - precise & supporting

> actual democracy.

Agreed its a great decision (although Supreme Court next). But not sure about the 'actual democracy'. The judgement is very clear that it is about constitutional powers and they find that the executive do not have power to change the law (quite right too!) - triggering article 50 will impact on existing law-given rights so it needs an act of parliament. So for me, the judgement supports representative government AGAINST democracy if one understands the latter term as 'the will of the people' or whatever. As they say, no such will is of any interest to them IN LAW - again, quite rightly. May is simply trying to short-circuit due process here by appealing precisely to democracy - a terrible thing to do. I remember that excellent book Bernard Crick wrote called In Defence of Politics in which one of the chapters is In Defence of Politics against Democracy - should be compulsory reading in the new academies.

[LadyNorwood]

Given that the Lord Chief Justice is a founding member of ELI, it was always going to go this way - shameful....

[Otta]

Shameful? Giving our elected parliment the right to vote on the terms of brexit is shameful?

You realise one of the cheif complainants was a leave voter?

This won't stop brexit, but it will stop this government just doing whateber the hell they want.

[LadyNorwood]

Otta Wrote:

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> Shameful? Giving our elected parliment the right

> to vote on the terms of brexit is shameful?

>

> You realise one of the cheif complainants was a

> leave voter?

>

> This won't stop brexit, but it will stop this

> government just doing whateber the hell they want.

No, my point is that the Lord Chief Justice is a founding member of ELI, therefore he is possibly not impartial....

[Lordship 516]

LadyNorwood Wrote:

> No, my point is that the Lord Chief Justice is a

> founding member of ELI, therefore he is not

> impartial....

You do the man an injustice, possibly even defaming him - he is a very well respected member of the judiciary & was entirely ethical and responsible to be involved in the ELI [European Law Institute] give that the UK is a member of the EU. Not to have been involved would have been a dereliction of his duty to UK jurisprudence given the impact that EU laws have on all our lives.

[LadyNorwood]

Lordship 516 Wrote:

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> LadyNorwood Wrote:

>

> > No, my point is that the Lord Chief Justice is

> a

> > founding member of ELI, therefore he is not

> > impartial....

>

> You do the man an injustice, possibly even

> defaming him - he is a very well respected member

> of the judiciary & was entirely ethical and

> responsible to be involved in the ELI give that

> the UK is a member of the EU. Not to have been

> involved would have been a dereliction of his duty

> to UK jurisprudence given the impact that EU laws

> have on all our lives.

I take your point, thank you - I have edited to read "possibly not impartial" - to the average Leave voter on the street, it doesn't sit well to have a senior judge who may be perceived to be less impartial, they may think he should have recused himself... I am in no way defaming anybody - I've been called far worse things than this....

[malumbu]

Going back to the original question. I've said earlier the economic shock when the price of oil went through the roof in the mid 70s that screwed my father's hard earned pension and had a massive effect on family finances let alone the disintegrating economy of the late 70. I feel this is a repeat be it a separate and self-inflicted cause.

I vary between denial and anger. We are a more divided nation than ever and much of this is to do with the apparent hatred of us 'lefy do-gooders' across much of the country. Well we may be do-gooders but hearts and intentions in the right place and we want (or wanted) a united country.

There are plenty who know far more about economics and politics than me - rather than loath them for this (as I suspect many outside our informed community would) I learn from it. I may think some of you are MCW but I still listen where you have knowledge and substance. Love and peace, the Chief MCW. © Life is Sweet/Jane Horricks

[Earl Aelfheah]

It's personal because it's linked to identity. It's about how we see ourselves and our place in the world.

[Angelina]

well it's still not clear.

DO they have to vote on the details? do they have to vote on if it can happen at all? Will we have an early GL in order to increase the vote for?

What would the politician's base their votes on? popularity in their constituencies? Even if it goes against what they think is the greater best interest?

[Alan Medic]

red devil Wrote:

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> Perhaps they will now take the case to the

> European Court of Justice... :)

Quote of the week I think!

This attitude of 'we must enforce the will of the people' gets on my ties. MP's are elected by the will of the people on the basis they know better than we do (possibly). A referendum which produced a result almost too close to call where many votes were very likely based on believing lies, is not the right way to decide the future of the country. Let the MP's debate on the actual merits or otherwise of Brexit and then vote on it.