Southwark democracy in action

[Zebedee Tring]

Q. What are the three most useless things in the world?

A. (1) A chocolate teapot (2) A one legged man at an arse kicking party and (3) Southwark Council's Planning Sub-Committee B.

I have chosen (3) after attending a three and half hour meeting of the Sub-Committee last night in which only three items were discussed, the last of which was a planning application relating to our next door property in ED to which we objected. The level of debate was almost universally abysmal, a conclusion which I reached well before our item. The Sub-Committee discussed the first item, then voted to reject the application, then voted to accept the rejection, then clearly became so confused that they finally voted to defer the matter! At least I think that was what happened, as it was difficult to work out what was going on. All this took one and half hours, with in effect no decision being made unless a deferral can be regarded as a decision.

My faith in local democracy was already pretty low, but it is now even lower.

[Zebedee Tring]

Administrator, this was about a planning application relating to an ED property, so surely it should in the General ED Issues section - it affects ED residents who come into contact with Southwark's planning and democratic system. I have amended the post to refer specifically to ED. Is that good enough?

[uncleglen]

After attending a few council meetings it became clear that, above all, the party line has to be toed, and objections will arise even though councillors, will ( in one case by his own admission) object even if they do not understand or know anything about the matter in hand

[Zebedee Tring]

Actually there was no party line at last night's meeting. Labour and Lib Dem Councillors were equally unimpressive and none seemed to know what they were doing.

Although we expected our objection to be unsuccessful and at the very best hoped that next door's planning application would be deferred for further information, we were very concerned about the way in which the Sub-Committee dealt with our objection. We emailed detailed comments on the officer report to all Sub-Committee members as well as the Planning Department; however it was clear that virtually none of the members had bothered to read our comments and showed no inclination to ask us questions about them even though we had highlighted a number of ways in the officer report was inadequate and actively invited questions. It seemed as if they wanted to deal with the item quickly so that they could go home, after having wasted half the meeting discussing an application which they then deferred in some confusion! (see my OP) The only Councillor who showed any interest was one of our Ward Councillors who spoke on our behalf.

I used to work in local government as a solicitor and attended numerous Planning Committee meetings, many of them deeply tedious, but last night's meeting was probably the most inept that I have attended.

[malumbu]

Democracty in action? Well it was democracy in that your elected representatives made a decision.

If you can do any better then I suggest you stand for a councillor.

I've experienced great frustration with numerous issues at a local level. But then occasionally stand back and think that there is a lot of hard work for little reward.

If you really are a solicitor then you will know all about the avenues to complain and how to escalate this. Sounds like you just want to have a good whinge. In fact whay are you even troubling us when the Russians are running amok in Syria and we are helping to provide the Saudis with indiscriminate weapons that are causing hell in the Yemen?

And we have a monkey in charge of the Whitehouse in the New Year.

As a non-solicitor my advice is if you are unhappy serve them with pre-JR notice - loads of good templates on line.

OK I have some crimbo cards to write.

[Zebedee Tring]

People who use baby like words such as "crimbo", "sarnie" and "prezzie" the whole time are usually pretty suspect and you, my friend, are no exception.

I don't need to be reminded about the state of the world. I post about it regularly on Facebook and elsewhere. It's just that, as you may have noticed, Russia, Syria and Yemen are not in ED, or even Southwark, which is why I am posting in the ED Forum. Indeed, as you will also see, I originally posted this item on the ED Issues page, but for some reason it was sent to the Lounge

I don't intend to apply for judicial review - there are no grounds to do so. However, if you were to read my post rather than insult me, you will have see that my complaint was about the disrespect with which the Sub Committee treated us. As you weren't there, you are in no position to tell me how they behaved.

I have done something about it - I have in fact contacted a local newspaper about the seriously weird voting that took place.

As for the motivation for standing as Councillor, my observation was that most of the Sub Committee members were seriously "up themselves", as indeed you are, my friend.

[nxjen]

To digress

"People who use baby like words such as "crimbo", "sarnie" and "prezzie" the whole time are usually pretty suspect ..."

Wasn't it John Lennon who first popularised the term 'Crimbo'?

[intexasatthe moment]

Zebedee - having had a quick look at this ,I'm wondering why no measurements were quoted to substantiate the planning officer's conclusion that the development would not result in a loss of less than 50% of what they call amenity space which they equate with the rear garden .

And ,not that it would help your case but I thought it was 50% of land around the orginal house ?

I share your concern about the lack of knowledge /professionalism at these meetings .

[BrandNewGuy]

nxjen Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> To digress

>

> "People who use baby like words such as "crimbo",

> "sarnie" and "prezzie" the whole time are usually

> pretty suspect ..."

>

> Wasn't it John Lennon who first popularised the

> term 'Crimbo'?

QED

[runs for cover]

[Zebedee Tring]

Intexas, we sent all the Councillors a lengthy objection dealing with the lack of evidence in the report to substantiate the Planning Officer's conclusions on many issues, including the 50% issue, and recommended that consideration of the report should be deferred for further information and consultation. As we had only a limited time to address the Sub Committee we invited members to ask us questions on our objections but there was a singular lack of response from Councillors who appeared to have decided what they wanted to do and who didn't therefore even go through the motions of looking interested.

The calculation of the garden area comprised in the planning unit was complicated since the applicant who had a leasehold interest in the bottom flat and a shared freehold in the whole house had overstated the amount of back garden that they in fact owned or controlled - they in fact had NO interest, freehold and leasehold, in a substantial part of the back garden. As a result it was necessary for the applicant to amend the plans on at least three occasions, but even then the Planning Officer attached the wrong plan to the report!

I am glad that you have made some serious points in your post rather than some irrelevant points about Russia, Syria or the like.

[Jeremy]

BrandNewGuy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> nxjen Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> > "People who use baby like words such as "crimbo" ... are usually pretty suspect ..."

> >

> > Wasn't it John Lennon who first popularised the term 'Crimbo'?

>

> QED

I'll never doubt his talents as a songwriter and singer, but bloody hell, "Imagine" makes me want to smash the radio into tiny pieces.

[Zebedee Tring]

Robert Elms, the journalist, once said that he hated "Imagine" more than any other song. This is because when it was first released he was a young boy from a poor family living in a Council flat in W London and it sickened him to hear one of the richest people in the UK singing about having "no possessions". The same John Lennon who had two apartments in the Dakota Building, one of the most expensive blocks in NYC, one of which was bought purely to provide a home for Yoko Ono's extensive collection of furs.

[Jeremy]

Yes. That, and the fact that it's complete shite.

[nxjen]

Agree about Imagine, it's always made me shudder but I'm appreciating his body of work more and more with the passage of time.

[Otta]

I always think of this when I think of Lennon.

"In 1967, John Lennon wrote a song called, ?All You Need is Love.? He also beat both of his wives, abandoned one of his children, verbally abused his gay Jewish manager with homophobic and anti-semitic slurs, and once had a camera crew film him lying naked in his bed for an entire day.

Thirty-five years later, Trent Reznor from Nine Inch Nails wrote a song called ?Love is Not Enough.? Reznor, despite being famous for his shocking stage performances and his grotesque and disturbing videos, got clean from all drugs and alcohol, married one woman, had two children with her, and then cancelled entire albums and tours so that he could stay home and be a good husband and father.

One of these two men had a clear and realistic understanding of love. One of them did not. One of these men idealized love as the solution to all of his problems. One of them did not. One of these men was probably a narcissistic asshole. One of them was not."

As Jeremy says, he was undoubtedly a great songwriter, but other than that he was a cock.

[Zebedee Tring]

In "The Ballad Of John And Yoko", Lennon sang:

"Christ you know it ain't easy

You know how hard it can be

The way things are going

They're going to crucify me".

Well, if you publicly celebrate your honeymoon by inviting the press in to witness your "Bed-In" at the Amsterdam Hilton Hotel and your demonstration of "bagism", you can't be surprised if people ridicule you. But of course Lennon equated himself with Christ, so he used the word "crucify".

[malumbu]

Z, your initial post was a whinge.

And now you have gone off at a tangent. For some reason precipitated by my use of the term chrimbo.

Step back and see how others may view your posting. PErhaps everyone else is too polite, or probably not bothered.

Complain to the Council, go to the Local Authority Ombudsman, write you your MP - and then come back to this site. I doubt whether the papers or Private Eye will be interested. Funnily enough I have been there.

The planning system may be arbritary, subjective etc but that's the one we have. Looking at the planning disasters around my way sadly it happens. I got nowhere in trying to shame the planning officer/s.

[Zebedee Tring]

If other people aren't bothered to comment on my posts, then why were you bothered, malumbu? Was it to try to show how smart you think you are?

The last time that I encountered snarky point scoring like yours was more than 50 years ago in the school playground. But the snarky people then had the excuse of being only 13 years old. What's your excuse?

[Growlybear]

We had an almost identical experience to Zebedee with Southwark's Planning Committee. After a great deal of work in preparing our objection to our neighbours' planning application, not one of the councillors bothered to question any of the points we or several neighbours had raised, and the application was approved with no discussion whatsoever. No-one acknowledged that the planning officer had never bothered to visit us to see the impact the development would have on our property, despite assurances that he would discuss the proposal with us, and his comments regarding our concerns were based on what little he could see from peering over the dividing garden wall. This application was heard late in the evening, after a long debate about a controversial application, by which time it was very clear that the councillors wanted to get home. Now that it has been built, the extension is every bit as hideous as we had feared; it has ruined the outlook from the rear of our house, and has greatly reduced the light to our patio.

[Zebedee Tring]

I'm very sorry to hear this, Growlybear, and hope that a certain contributor to this thread won't accuse you of "whingeing".

At least in our case because of our original comments, and before the application reached the Sub Committee, we managed to get the Planning Officer to persuade the applicant to reduce their proposed rear extension on our side, so hopefully it won't be as bad as the original proposal would have been.