City bonuses

[Alan Dale]

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[mockney piers]

I know what you're getting at Alan, and also that you're being a bit tongue in cheek, but just in case people take it literally.

So, everyone has a fridge, but that doesn't really define not being poor does it.

http://www.poverty.org.uk/01/index.shtml

So things getting a leeeetle bit later, but...

[SeanMacGabhann]

I know Alan likes a good debate and I should know better - but:

"Intellectual superiority and economic inferiority often go hand in hand"

Based on what analysis and study? Is it aimed at anyone on here?

"Whilst this debate is of some merit, the ultimate pull the rug out question for those who moan about the city bonuses is 'what would you do about it?' invariably their answers would cripple the economy and spoil the party for everyone"

It may be the ultimate question but it would be rash to try and answer it without making the journey first. The first question being "Is everything hunky dory or is there anything we might want to address in this world of ours?"

If we see people suffering genuine hardship is there nothing we want to do?

Is sharing resources that difficult for people?

Business always complains that any new rules would cripple it (and did so back in the slave days.... bless em)

"It's a tough life lesson. Some people are more able, others are more priveleged and lots work harder. If you have a specific gripe about your own situation then I expect it can be addressed. If you are just expressing an empathy for a disenfrachised underclass then don't bother - they wouldn't extend you the same courtesy."

Oooh look - another generalisation. Says who Alan? History shows the progress made by mankind when it co-operates rather than competes. And looking for gratitude isn't th eorder of the day in any case.

"The wealth gap problem is one created and propagated because no one is poor enough to worry about any more. If the price of making everyone rich enough to feed and clothe themselves is that a few people appear to be ludicrously wealthy then so be it."

"noone" is poor enough? sheesh. Poverty doesn't begin and end at clothes and food (although that was the case for most of our history)

It doesn't take the worlds most bleeding heart to sit in an office at 6pm when the cleaners come in, speak to them, realise that most of them are doing several different jobs, for perfectly "repectable" agencies who try and dock every single penny they can for the most petty reasons (toiletbreaks etc) . Pennies that make a difference to their lives. The 6 and 7 figure earners at the top can indulge as much times as they want and not suffer a penny deduction - and think "hang on - something's not right here".

"We've never had it so good."

By which you mean - let them eat cake I assume

and finally: "until something better is found"

Ain't noone going to stumble upon it. The money floats to the top by aggression. If a better way was found it would be ruthlessly stamped out to protect the interests of those concerned. Rights are never granted they are always fought for

[*Bob*]

If anyone out there is feeling a little down, they're more than welcome to come an look in my 'Enron Memorabilia' drawer.

I have two flashing yo-yos, some 'stress relief' squeezers, bouncey balls, a musical pen and an "ENRON - MOVIN'' ON UP" torch.

Always cheers me up anyway.

[Alan Dale]

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[Jah Lush]

A city boy, Kenny moved to the country and bought a donkey from an old farmer for $100. The farmer agreed to deliver the donkey the next day.

The next day the farmer drove up and said: "Sorry son, but I have some bad news, the donkey died."

Kenny replied: "Well then, just give me my money back."

The farmer said: "Can't do that, I went and spent it already."

Kenny said: "OK then, at least give me the donkey."

The farmer asked: "What ye gonna do with him."

Kenny: "I'm going to raffle him off."

Farmer: "You can't raffle off a dead donkey."

Kenny: "Sure I can. Watch me. I just won't tell anybody he is dead."

A month later the farmer met up with Kenny and asked: "What happened with that dead donkey?"

Kenny: "I raffled him off. I sold 500 tickets at two dollars a piece and made a profit of $900."

Farmer: "Didn't anyone complain?"

Kenny: "Just the guy who won. So I gave him his two dollars back."

Kenny grew up and eventually became the chairman of Enron.

Not quite in line with this thread and I guess it should be in the jokes section but just the mere mention of Enron and I couldn't help myself. Hope it lightened things up a bit.

[Alan Dale]

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[James]

"It also seems that the people most concerned about 'the poor' are middle class Guardian readers who moan about the system because they themselves made a spurious career choice and slipped down the relative wealth league tables that they hold so dear."

Um, do you mean me?

I do regret my "spurious" career. Even though it suits my skills, I'm good at it, I enjoy it and I'm doing well, alas, if only I was a city boy. Then I could earn bucketloads of money and have no life!!! Great!

[*Bob*]

I reckon the torch must be good for at least a fiver on eBay.

[*Bob*]

I've still got my dressing gown on, so I'm more than happy with my career choice.

[mockney piers]

>People forget that for 70 years Enron was a successful company that employed and therefore fed and clothed a huge number of

> hard working people.

Indeed, when it was a real company producing a real commodity. Then it bought into the whole limitless greed is good thing (probably thanks to that force for evil, McKinsey & Company), people did anything to secure their bonuses, risk-managers were drummed out of the business because they didn't bring in an income and the rest, is as they say, history.

[SeanMacGabhann]

People don't forget that Enron was a successful company - but they are entitle to make the obvious point that so many hard-working people were thrown out of work was because of the greed and arrogance of the senior employees - which is exactly what we are talking about

[Alan Dale]

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[SeanMacGabhann]

The system might indeed rely on those qualities - but the things that genuinely enrich our lives (and not just the money which greases the wheels) tend not to be generated by the system. Worse they can be flattened by it

Posting about relative merits of caffeine based drinks is not a sign of champagne-soci-alism. I believe they do it in Norway even!

You have a bee in your bonnet about the Guardian today don't you. Although there may be some truth in your statement about it's hang-ups in relation to the Mail. The difference being (as you KNOW) that having a pop at executive pay is, at most, going to affect a very small number of, and already very privileged, individuals (however hard they may have worked). And by affect I mean, not at all

The Mail's hysteria about immigration on the other hand, has a very real consequence for a lot of people who have already had a fair bit to deal with in life

[mockney piers]

If we're going to get batey about excessive pay I might be tempted to bring up Blair's purported 7 figure advance for his autobiography. Funnily enough I thought there were laws in this country about not profiting from criminal enterprises.

Can I drawing-room this thread?

[Brendan]

His criminality is no longer an issue Mockney as the Rule of Law in Britain has been superseded by the Rule of Apathy.

[*Bob*]

It's also worth remembering that those affected by 'Guardian-type hysteria' are less likely to spend the evening looking for 'foreigners' so they can kick the living daylights out of them for 'taking our homes, jobs, women etc'.

One thing I do know: I have no envy of anyone who works in the financial sector.

If someone wants to get up while it's still dark, put a cheap suit on, spend two hours a day on public transport with their nose pressed up against someone's armpit, spend ten hours reading the FT and looking at bar-charts whilst praying for 6pm to come - only to be press-ganged into awkward drinks with dick-swinging braying idiots they have nothing in common with other than where the payslips come from.. then more power to them.

It's not for me.

[Brendan]

Well put Bob. I much prefer the public sector which is filled with Guardian reading, over educated slackers.

[Alan Dale]

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[mockney piers]

I have to say I actually enjoyed working in the financial sector and I like the city which really is a strange city within a city; good places to eat, some great pubs tucked around and about. I worked at a Dutch bank (soon not be any more but hey) and it had a pretty good culture that encouraged the idea that life's not all about work (you don't get that in the US banks) and trusted in personal responsibility.

You can usually avoid the braying idiots, especially by giving the Pitcher & Piano a very wide berth; that said my liver couldn't take the drink culture any more.

For the record I was an IT geek (gasps all round "Really?!?!?") so was never tempted by red braces over my pink stripey shirt with oversized white collars and cuffs.

[*Bob*]

Possibly. But once that day is done, one has the rest of the week to count the royalties and have a life.

[Alan Dale]

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[*Bob*]

.. in the back garden. Nice day for it.

Is it sunny in the office?

[*Bob*]

Looks like rain now. I blame you, Alan.

[Alan Dale]

On your own.