wikileaks

[SeanMacGabhann]

but if anyone wants to know where he is hiding, Eddie Izzard seems to know

Assange est dans l'arbre

[mockney piers]

With power comes responsibility, yet these leaks show us just how irresponsible those with power can be.

It's not assange who is irresponsible but those who represent us so poorly.

I'm all for greater transparency because this forces people to question and scrutinise their actions to a much greater degree, just look at MPs post expenses, I don't see people saying how important secrecy is there, but briefly it was a tactic that our representatives tried to use.

As for saving lives, it's so straw man it's quite unbelievable. If we'd had the truth about 45 minutes and dodgy dossiers at the time then there would probably be half a million odd lives saved, but then there seems to be a correlation between those up in arms about some amusing documents (only formally confirming what we already Suspected/knew, lets face it) being circulated and those who felt those half million deaths were justifiable.

[mockney piers]

Btw I mean those in politics and in the press, not necessarily on here.

[Loz]

More suspicious: apparently Sweden has a looser extradition agreement with the US, so once Assange is in Swedish custody...

(I find the notion that Sweden has a worse extradition agreement than Britain surprising, given how bad and unbalanced the US/UK one is.)

[louisiana]

+1 MP.

I've still to see any good reason from the USG of why they withheld for 2-3 years (from Reuters, who were using FOI) the footage of the Reuters reporters being killed; and all the other people killed and injured (including children) by US forces in that footage. Though the footage certainly gave a fresh perspective on the idea of saving lives.

[Ridgley]

Why are people so surprised, regarding this? Most governments have a history of secret wheeling?s and dealings back stabbing, corruptions goes on all the time this brave man just told the public what they already suspected. As a cynic I don?t trust what comes out of there mouths if they say the sky is blue I am looking for the sky to be green.

[mockney piers]

National interest is one of those banal terms that mask a great deal of evil.

Regards the footage Louisiana mentioned, the reality was that it was suppressed in the 'national interest', obviously because the nation might lose stomach for a brutal unjustifiable occupation and the consequent murder of innocents.

In my book it's in the national interest to come to that conclusion. So by national interest we really mean government interest don't we.

I thought post enlightenment we'd got past all that l'etat c'est moi type stuff, but try telling that to the bigwigs, apparachiks, advisers and so called representatives who make the murderous decisions.

In terms of international diplomacy I think one of the things revealed is how Frank those involved in diplomacy can be, it's the public sphere that isn't supposed to know. Again I can't see how transparency can be a bad thing.

If it helped states to behave like grown ups, have meaningful dialogue and work towards cooperation rather than scheme, manipulate and lobby, then this world might have hope for the future yet.

I'm not holding my breath and my third shipment of assault rifles should be arriving at my cottage in the welsh mountains later in the week (that's more to do with the impending zombie outbreak than it is preparing for climate change doom thanks to oil business interests taking precedent over real national interests...oooh, there's that term again)

[Keef]

The timing of this arrest warrent hq a total joke, and it stinks to high heaven. I do however think that this bloke is a monumental cock. Totally agree that transparency is important in many things, but anyone who thinks Joe public should know EVERYTHING that is going on, is a bit of an idiot quite frankly.

[Keef]

I also cant help thinking that the people who are most up in arms about this, are the same people who are convinced 9/11 was a big American plot, and Diana was killed by the royal family.

[Brendan]

Keef Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> , but anyone who thinks Joe public should

> know EVERYTHING that is going on, is a bit of an

> idiot quite frankly.

There is so much wrong with that sentiment I don't even know where to start.

[mockney piers]

I think Joe Public is mostly concerned with transparency in XFactor decision making truth be told ;-)

[Keef]

Brendan, why is there so much wrong with what I said? Do you really think that everyone should have total access to every decision made by those in power? I'm sorry, but I can't agree with that. And Piers, you're sadly right. There is a large part of the british public who probably are more worried about xfactor, than what goes on outside of their bubbles, and that is why politicians with substance will now lose every time to the politicians with the media friendly smile.

[Brendan]

Dear Mr Diplotician.

Hi my name is Public, Joe Public. How are you? I am fine.

If there is any information regarding international diplomacy, internal affairs and/or the X Factor which you think I should not be privy to I will remind you that you run this fucking country on my behalf and I expect you to do so with the same level of integrity and accountability and adhering to the same moral principles as I do in the conduct my day-to-day business. As my representative you will go about your work openly, honestly and in good faith and I will be the one to decide what I need to know, thank you very much you condescending prick.

[Loz]

Keef Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The timing of this arrest warrent hq a total joke,

> and it stinks to high heaven. I do however think

> that this bloke is a monumental cock. Totally

> agree that transparency is important in many

> things, but anyone who thinks Joe public should

> know EVERYTHING that is going on, is a bit of an

> idiot quite frankly.

Harsh. It's worth reading this piece to be published in tommorrow's Australian in which Assange explains his motives.

[louisiana]

mockney piers Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I think Joe Public is mostly concerned with

> transparency in XFactor decision making truth be

> told ;-)

Yesterday I discovered there's a game show called Pointless.

Can this be true?

[Keef]

Problem with that Brendan, as that the integrity and accountability with which you lead your life, are probably not identical to those of your neighbours.

[Brendan]

Well they can fuck off too.

[Loz]

Brendan Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Dear Mr Diplotician.

>

> Hi my name is Public, Joe Public. How are you? I

> am fine.

>

> If there is any information regarding

> international diplomacy, internal affairs and/or

> the X Factor which you think I should not be privy

> to I will remind you that you run this @#$%&

> country on my behalf and I expect you to do so

> with the same level of integrity and

> accountability and adhering to the same moral

> principles as I do in the conduct my day-to-day

> business. As my representative you will go about

> your work openly, honestly and in good faith and I

> will be the one to decide what I need to know,

> thank you very much you condescending prick.

Blimey Brendon, even I agree that some things in government have to be held in secret. Openness is good and governments abuse the secrecy system, but some things are classified for very good reasons. There are some things you do not need to know and widespread knowledge would be dangerous. Unfortunately you, as Mr Joe Public, are not the person to make that distinction.

What Wikileaks has shown is that an awful lot of classified material is junk. Oh, and UK 'Independent Enquiries' are anything but.

[Brendan]

Balls, balls, balls, balls, balls, balls, balls!

Why can?t there be complete transparency? We?ll just have to adjust to a different way of thinking and doing things.

The problem with an accepted system of secrecy is that it is right there slap bang in the middle of the people we can trust the least to use it properly.

[mockney piers]

I'm inclined to agree with Brendan.

We only claim we need things to be secret because we live in a fucked up world where use all the wrong means to getting anything done.

Once again I return to how Europe is pointing the way for the rest of the world to work, that all dispute is resovled through negotiated agreements and hung around a legal framework that all participants elevate certain responsibilities to.

Once the rest of the world signs up to this there is no need for war, there is no need for aggressive tactics to force entry to or domination of markets or bullying to assure certain businesses are favoured over others. There is no need for national espionage.

If businesses and religions and football clubs want to get involved in nefarious activities then they are welcome to do so with the obvious proviso that if they get caught they are in trouble.

The business of government is to assure the moral legal frameworks within which society can better function and the distribution of a portion of our generated wealth at our behest (or at least within the broad brushstrokes of desire that democracy allows for).

I think it all boils down to the fact that for executives, that's all terribly boring, but spies and tanks and things exploding and crisis round table summits etc etc etc are far more exciting.

Those people should be sacked and given Modern Warfare Black Ops or Civilisation like everyone else!!!!

[Dickensman]

Loz thanks for the link,

I agree with his argument, it does amount to 'shooting the post boy'!

[mockney piers]

Obviously, like most people, there is lots of self justification going on, but he speaks many truths.

I think the most important is that modern mainstream media far too often acquiesces to governments desalted on the one hand, and is lazy, cost cutting and basically rubbish on the other.

Good investigative journalism seems to have been sidelined to the likes of Private Eye and weirdly occasional output in thins like Vanity Fair and Rolling Stone believe it or not.

Your average issue of the even a supposedly reputable national daily is little more than regurgitated press releases and AP/Reuters stringer bylines.

In the absence of this something like wikileaks is absolutely vital and proper journalism should hang it's head in shame.

[mockney piers]

The WW1 reference was very canny,as that saw probably the most draconian period of curtailment of press freedom this country ever saw, and far from saving lives it allowed the perpetuation of the monstrous slaughter for almost five years.

People should think twice before regurgitating trite tired lines from politicians about the need for secrecy.

[James Barber]

I find the Wikileaks very sad - they've revealed deep lies of British politicians and civil servants e.g. Diego Garcia.

Of spineless sucking up to the US by Tories before the elections.

I suspect most would assume diplomacy has an unseemly side but the scale of it takes my breath away. Very sad that our world is so badly run. You couldn't make it up.

So, for what its worth I think the Wikeleaks has been a good thing. In future every government official and politician will wonder if what they're saying and doing will find its way in the public domain. That can only be a useful brake on the undoubted past excess.

[mockney piers]

Thing is we didn't need wikileaks to know how spineless the government has been regards Diego Garcia is it's all very much down on the record how they have done everything in their power to go against all the High Court judgements the Chagossians have won.

Sad indeed.