The Euro

[????]

?It won?t work, you can?t marry up sovereign states with different political, economic and, er, cough ?accounting practices' together under one set of monetary rules.?

?The differences in economic cycles between various states means a one size fits all interest rate policy is extremely economically risky?

?Ultimately, it will mean the loss of sovereignty for most of its members and Germany ruling the roost?

And so it came to pass. Next time will ?liberal? idealsists and worthy politicians please join in an actual debate rather than insult those who pose legitimate questions as ?little englanders?, or ?europhobes? etc etc?

I doubt it, as ?liberal? idealists? ideas don?t tend to win arguments under scrutiny so smear, lies and demonisation are their normal tactic against those that dare even question their ?progressive? certainty.

Discuss

[Jah Lush]

To Gordon Brown's credit he kept us out of the Euro despite the constant prompting from The Bliar.

[????]

Yup and thank Ed Balls too. That's when he was still being a highly competent and effective chancellor...then he lost it in hubris and hype.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Firstly I don?t want to smear anyone but I do get tired of being called ?liberal? and worthy as an insult

All economic policies (including UK) have their own risks and problems. Quids is well placed to observe the carnage in Ireland at the moment but Iceland was in a similar (even worse?) boat and they had nowt to do with the Euro

The eurozone is in massive crisis, some of which is a direct result of it?s inherent structure, some of which is global in nature

If we take the 3 points in the OP, even if factually correct (and I don?t agree with all them) is the concept not born out of valid ideas and goals ? and end to the feudal european values of old, which have resulted in world wars and the like?

If you don?t accept there is validity in exploring a way forward via monetary union then there is no debate to be had

If you think there is some validity but are worried about the reasons expressed (and more) then fair enough ? but none of the reasons are inherent showstoppers. The countries in the zone are still wary of each other and retain national traits but I would still argue they have seen more change for good in the last 20 years than the current crisis suggests

So again, without wishing to smear anyone, I don?t think the Euro is done-for just yet and even if continues to fall apart and eventually expires I still think it a valid attempt and cooperation and cohesion (even tho I understand the argumets against, some of them mentioned in the OP)

[Ridgley]

So SMG if you are not Liberal, what would you say you are your views tend to point to that direction?

[????]

Personally, I consider myself very much a liberal....but not a 'liberal' as the label has generelly been stolen by those from a far more statist and illiberal tradition which was exposed as a failure about 20 years ago (hint: S****lism)

[mockney piers]

How about being labelled "2/10 must try harder"?

[SeanMacGabhann]

Ridgeley - i am a liberal leftie but what I objected to is the use in modern parlance as an insult

for example quids had a go at Johann Hari's article in teh wikileaks thread as a good example of what he objects to so I've just gone and read it and can't see too much wrong with it. Whereas quids does....

[????]

Come on Sean, this is absolutely fooking hysterical trying to have it both ways, which, if your read my post was the point not the sentiment of the article itself:

Of course, it is possible Julian Assange did this good, noble thing, and is also a rapist. I do not believe in reflexively dismissing rape claims by any woman, in any circumstances. Bill Clinton was the victim of a right-wing smear campaign and many of us dismissed the allegations of sexual assault against him ? but now, years later, one of the women who came forward, Kathleen Willey, has earned nothing from her allegations, remains a left-wing Democrat, and seems to have a very plausible case.

Here?s what we know. There is a long history of the CIA viciously smearing people who dare to cross the US state machinery. There is a strong chance the claims against Assange is another case of it. But there is also a long history of otherwise admirable men turning out to be rapists, and there?s a chance this is another case of it. This should be tested in a court of law ? and the trial should be watched very careful to make sure it?s not being rigged by bribes or threats.

Ooh, I sooo want him to be a goody but, oh, the sisters, mmm must cover that - laughable.

[mockney piers]

How the he'll is that PC liberal crap?

It's just someone saying we have no idea about the truth behind the allegations, but some people have been smeared and some people turn out to be dodgy.

Seems an eminently rational position to me, and that's from someone who finds Hari tiresomely annoying 80% of the time (though he has improved in the last year or two, maybe he's growing up a bit and becoming grumpy like all good people should)

[????]

...so in Jonathon Hari's eyes claims of rape by someone who is a democrat are therfeore some how more valid than if that woman were a Republican? Now that's putrid prejudice, from someone who now doubt thinks of himself as a liberal.

It's the frankly juvenile one side or the other in the politics of too many on the left that is deeply illiberal which was my original, and genuine Mockney, point about 'debating' certin issues with many 'liberal' left wingers.

[SeanMacGabhann]

you say laughable, I say only sane response to an unusual situation. I don't think he's "doing it for the sisters" tho - but even if he was, there isn't anything inherently wrong in that.

[SeanMacGabhann]

I haven't seen ANYTHING to suggest that, from his lips or anyone

[????]

but now, years later, one of the women who came forward, Kathleen Willey, has earned nothing from her allegations, remains a left-wing Democrat, and seems to have a very plausible case.

[mockney piers]

That's just your inference though quids. I took it to mean that she's thus unlikely to have been a stooge in a right wing smear campaign.

[????]

I took it to mean that Hari has a set of batteries by which he measures the validity of people's claims and beliefs based on how near they are to his own politics - screeching, biley, lefty misinformation mostly in his case obviously

edited for People's in the wrong place

[SeanMacGabhann]

That was how i read it too

As for assange allegations, interesting letter from women against rape group today

http://bit.ly/fMd6R6

[mockney piers]

Well I'd say my inference looks the more rational and less screechy of the two quids, but that's probably my PC liberal bias at work ;-P

[Ridgley]

The best thing, is to wait and see what the evidence is to this allocation now doubt we will know in due course regarding Julian Assange.

[????]

pc 'liberal' bias please Mockers

[Brendan]

De Gaulle was right the British nation should never have been let into the EEC (EU) as it is politically and socially incongruous with the founding European states.

Its presence devalues and destabilises the community.

[Jeremy]

Going back to the original point... it's disingenuous to say that the left were not interested in serious debate, when many on the right in the anti-Euro camp were putting forward silly arguments about national identity and suchlike.

[????]

lol...yup unlike Greeces, Portugals, Spains, Irealands, and Italys

Bung in all the apostrophes

[????]

Jeremy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Going back to the original point... it's

> disingenuous to say that the left were not

> interested in serious debate, when many on the

> right in the anti-Euro camp were putting forward

> silly arguments about national identity and

> suchlike.

Surely you maen the Labour Party pre 1987 Jeremy? Before they lost the economic answer so started looking for another airy principle...oohh Europeanism ;-)

[Brendan]

???? Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> lol...yup unlike Greeces (a bit) and Irelands

Now your point has some merit.