Another terrorist attack....... Ariana grande concert

[JoeLeg]

I still find it hard to believe you're a teacher. If you were one of my kids teachers we'd be having a very frank chat about your views, because I don't see how you can be responsible for educating young minds while being so repulsive.

I can think of many fundamentalist Christians who behave in a very similar way. Homophobia is by no means limited to any one group, and the Islamic faith is hardly one homogenous group.

Anyone indoctrinated from birth by an intense religious experience is vulnerable, Islam is not a special case in this respect. There are arguments to be made about issues of intergration in the UK, but these are not them.

[Borky]

Islam: Religion

Islamism: Political ideology

[uncleglen]

the thread is about the manchester attack. I did not say that religious extremism is restricted to islamic faiths. In fact the Westborough Baptist Church is as bad as they often demonstrate against the 'way of life' of say rock stars e.g. Dime Bag Darryl Abbott, Jeff Hanneman....- and they were planning to picket the Kansas City performance of Soundgarden last Sunday. Also a lot of muslims attend catholic institutions for education as they follow the same vile attitude toward gay people. None of what I have said is 'made up'- it is not my fault that you have lived a sheltered life JoeLeg. I sometimes wish I had never, as an outspoken atheist, come across the vile medieval attitudes that are apparent in some 'faith' schools- and then I would be just like you

[JoeLeg]

'Sheltered life'? Me?! Hahahaha! Oh you do crack me up...

Any illusions I had about the world got swept away the day I joined the Army...

Strangely enough I've discovered some common ground with you, in that we share a view of what faith can do to otherwise quite decent human beings.

I am in no way blind to the dangers posed by the tiny minority of Islamic followers who do indeed want to watch the West burn. But I find it difficult to single out Islam as a religion in the way you described it when I see the same terrible traits not only in all religions, but in life in general.

Yes, the thread is about the Manchester bombings. In that vein I would assert that my issue with your post is that it presumes the idea that a young, vulnerable individual is more likely to be made into a suicide bomber because they are Islamic. I would assert that any twisted cause can find a martyr if it tries hard enough and lies hard enough.

If we are to fight against such an insubstantial yet forceful enemy we need to squash those who have already taken up arms while using soft power to destroy there ability to justify themselves.

It just looks from your post like you think only Muslims are prone to being brainwashed etc; if you ascribe the same view to other religions etc then fair enough. I've said many times that there are intergration issues in this country, but these are separate to the incredibly complex question of how we use the direct force neccesary to combat direct threats like Manchester, while at the same time using diplomacy and persuasion to make people halfway round the world understand that we aren't the enemy.

[SpringTime]

Like Christianity, Islam comes from Judaism. Read the Koran and it?s abundantly evident that Islam is nothing more than a scam to decimate the former Arabs? paganism (Mohammed was a pagan before he sold out to monotheism) and mobilise an Arab army against the Christians who were in dispute with the Jews on the Eastern side of the Red Sea at the time. Lost your husband in the conflict? Then marry someone else?s?

Islam means submission and that?s it in a nutshell. The centuries old glory days of its inclusive, colourful and rich culture when philosophy, art and science were celebrated were never its original aim. And for all the arguments based on being moderate (as if genital mutilation of children or the enforced worship of an invisible, false and hateful god are moderate ? that?s beyond extreme!) please remember that Islam needs the ?moderates? to help breed more soldiers.

Islam is a system designed to enslave its followers, and destroy its opponents either though direct action or breeding.

Holding vigils and lighting up European monuments with the colours of flags won?t help.

[Borky]

Todays tip : Go long pitchforks and torches, short halal butchers

[JohnL]

But read the bible and you see similar things as the original aim of Christianity - as the new religion tries to break away from the old so the old religion is demonized.

For example the tale of Jesus & Barabas in Pilates court as a blood curse (Mathew 27:24-25) - notice after Christianity is up and running it doesn't need demonization of the Jewish religion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_curse

[Borky]

derision make a far better weapon that logic when dealing with poltroons

[JoeLeg]

And yet millions upon millions of Islamic followers choose not to rise up and slaughter the infidels.

Look, everything you say is correct, but the interesting thing about religion - all religion - is that it gets altered over time by its followers. As time passes they start to pick and choose what parts of their faith they want or follow, and theologians and lay folk can argue until the sun comes up what that actually means for them in the long run, but for a religion which does, at its core, have the conquering of its neighbours as a key tenet of its founding, it's doing a pretty good job, well, not doing that.

I agree that there are many who interpret it that way, but there are many Muslims who look at that and view it through a modern prism, choosing to discard it. The ones who want to destroy us are those who want to wind the clock back hundreds of years and ignore all the progress made by society. These aren't reasonable people and I have no problem hitting them with drone strikes or snipers, or anything else.

But unless you are actively trying to attack me, and assuming you are willing to intergration into my society (a different conversation), then I have no business making a window into your soul, and vice versa.

A lot of 'moderate' Muslims may well privately disagree with certain Westerm values, but they're happy to make accommodations that allow them to live here. I don't notice a great rush of people back to Islamic nations. I don't bug arguments that they're waiting to out-breed us either. They're doing what most people do; compromising their values because they like where they live, and rationalising it.

[SpringTime]

I previously posted this (should've appeared before JohnL's post 6.02pm today I think) though it seems to have been removed. Just to be clear this is not a hateful rant against Jews, Christians and Muslims, or anyone else for that matter. Let's see if it sticks this time:

.........................................

Like Christianity, Islam comes from Judaism. Read the Koran and it?s abundantly evident that Islam is nothing more than a scam to decimate the former Arabs? paganism (Mohammed was a pagan before he sold out to monotheism) and mobilise an Arab army against the Christians who were in dispute with the Jews on the Eastern side of the Red Sea at the time. Lost your husband in the conflict? Then marry someone else?s?

Islam means submission and that?s it in a nutshell. The centuries old glory days of its inclusive, colourful and rich culture when philosophy, art and science were celebrated were never its original aim. And for all the arguments based on being moderate (as if genital mutilation of children or the enforced worship of an invisible, false and hateful god are moderate ? that?s beyond extreme!) please remember that Islam needs the ?moderates? to help breed more soldiers.

Islam is a system designed to enslave its followers, and destroy its opponents either though direct action or breeding.

Holding vigils and lighting up European monuments with the colours of flags won?t help.

[Jules-and-Boo]

JoeLeg - bang on about followers picking and choosing the bits they want to follow.

I like your post.

[Administrator]

SpringTime, I'm not sure if your messages can be classed as hate messages but the tone of them is undoubtedly unpleasant towards a religious group in a "hmm, I think that's a bit too far and crosses the line" way. Please do not post your message again.

[jaywalker]

JohnL Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> But read the bible and you see similar things as

> the original aim of Christianity - as the new

> religion tries to break away from the old so the

> old religion is demonized.

>

> For example the tale of Jesus & Barabas in Pilates

> court as a blood curse (Mathew 27:24-25) - notice

> after Christianity is up and running it doesn't

> need demonization of the Jewish religion.

>

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_curse

No, but it did get a bit internecine instead, I fear.

With respect to Christianity (which was force fed me as a child, not only at Sunday School, and a primary school where we had to sing All Things Bright and Beautiful "the Lord God made them all" - not exactly, I fear) and even into my teens in the form of compulsory Chapel where we were told such niceties as no sex before marriage as its a sin, we were strangely protected from any real mention of this. That Catholics burned Protestants, and Protestants pressed Catholics to death (see John Carey's wonderful book on John Donne) was strangely not interrogated.

There are always a few things to say about the composition of a particular religion (some have contents more clearly out of joint with the norms of the times) but this is always 'this variant of this religion' as any successful institutionalisation has bifurcated into multiple kinds (Islam is a good example of this great multiplicity!) - but we (us here now) would do well to focus on the disastrous legacy of Christianity in our own world-views (from which it is hugely difficult to escape). Here, Nietzsche was absolutely right, and if someone hasn't read what he had to say about it they are pretty much flying blind.

[Nigello]

Poor show by Admin - nothing in that post was worthy of being banned. People are allowed to be offended and to offend, whether talking about religion, Iceland, price of a pint, poor service at Le Chandelier (RIP) or whether or not Louisa is persona non grata. Plenty of stuff on here can be seen as "unpleasant" but it doesn't get pulled. 0/10

[jaywalker]

I am not so sure. Because Admin monitors posts (and that is a good thing) she/he has some legal liability him/herself for what appears here. The laws on causing religious and other offence are not at all stable (as in the 'your horse is gay' fiasco).

[Administrator]

A few points of incorrectness in your post Nigello, it's a good job you're not in the Admin team. Quite simply I don't want people offending others on here, if you don't like that then fuck off. Smiley face.

[alice]

you made a wise decision. thankyou.

[Seabag]

I quite fancy Admin

[uncleglen]

I do ascribe the same view to other religions. I heard a girl tell her friend that people who do not go to church are evil.

[Nigello]

But you cannot stop people being offended - it rests with the offendee, not the offender, so how can you guarantee you won't be doing exactly what you grandly claim to be avoding?

Why not stop the - lengthy and baffling - thread on the cemeteries on that basis, because plenty of people have got their knickers in a knot over issues that it has raised. Similarly, some people are very offended when their political party is criticised, but such posts are not taken down.

Please don't censor on the grounds of "niceness" - you'll only end up damaging yourself and others in the process.

I agree with P Tatchell's approach - let people have their say even if it goes completely against your very being, let alone point of view.

[Administrator]

Agree, I cannot stop people being offended, but here in the UK we have laws against hate incidents and I can stop people spouting racially or religiously aggravating piffle on this forum.

There's sometimes a blurry line between discussion, giving opinions and just plain nastiness (and sometimes people are unaware that what they are saying is abusive). Those who know me and the forum know people are allowed to argue, disagree, pile-on!, fisty cuffs etc to allow free flowing discussion. Fortunately I don't often have to step in and remove posts for being abusive, so it's not a case of censoring "on the grounds of "niceness"" it's a simply case of common sense and removing a post that's wrong.

Anyway that's enough off-topic banter from us about how I should run the forum, let's get back on-topic of " Another terrorist attack....... "

[uncleglen]

The arena of the Rock am Ring Festival near Koblenz was evacuated tonight due to a terrorist threat. Attended by about 80,000...

[seenbeen]

Unfortunately because of legislation in 2002 which removed powers from the Home Secretary and gave it to 'judges' another miscreant cannot get a whole life order...

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/12448683/manchester-bomber-hashem-abedi-life-sentence-not-21-bomb/

[j.a.]

seenbeen Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Unfortunately because of legislation in 2002 which

> removed powers from the Home Secretary and gave it

> to 'judges' another miscreant cannot get a whole

> life order...

> https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/12448683/manchester-

> bomber-hashem-abedi-life-sentence-not-21-bomb/

You didn?t read the article you linked, did you?

It literally says

?Speaking at the start of the hearing, Mr Justice Jeremy Baker said: "The reality is that if the accused had been over the age of 21, as was his brother, who of course died in the incident, then it would be the prosecution's case that this was a case where a whole life order was appropriate.

"It is a matter not at the court's discretion? but a matter for Parliament, which passed the legislation to prevent the court from passing a whole order in this case."

Do you understand what you?ve got wrong? Or should I write it in big coloured crayon?

I wouldn?t have been so rude about your lack of basic reading comprehension if it wasn?t for the bit where you put ?judges? in apostrophes, thus demonstrating that you?re probably one of those who thinks they are the ?enemy of the people?.

An independent judiciary - you?ll miss it when it?s gone...

[j.a.]

And oh look, the judge gave him 23 life sentences and recommended that he not even be considered for parole for 55 years.

Tell me again about how ?judges? have undermined us here? I?ll wait...