Who goes to jail for Grenfell?

[DaveR]

Usually you investigate and gather evidence before charging anyone. That way you don't end up looking like an idiot when you come in front of a judge, who will not be swayed by how terrible the event was if you don't actually have a case in law.

[hpsaucey]

uncleglen Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> well I have now found out that some of the tenants

> did want them but others didn't

> http://metro.co.uk/2017/06/16/council-leader-says-

> residents-didnt-want-disruption-of-sprinklers-bein

> g-fitted-6712562/

You have not 'found out'. You have read a newspaper's account of what they say Nick Paget-Brown, Tory leader of Kensington and Chelsea Council said. Didn't see any quotes or reporting of anyone else at all in that link.

HP

[rendelharris]

uncleglen Wrote:

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> well I have now found out that some of the tenants

> did want them but others didn't

> http://metro.co.uk/2017/06/16/council-leader-says-

> residents-didnt-want-disruption-of-sprinklers-bein

> g-fitted-6712562/

Oh I see now, it's the residents' fault for not accepting something which should have been installed at the landlord's expense, not theirs, and nothing to do with using flammable cladding which is so dangerous it's banned in other countries. Thank goodness you've made that clear, can you tell me how I can get my contribution to the emergency fund back, as it was clearly their fault all along.

Seriously pal, have a word with yourself.

[red devil]

Does anyone know what the make-up of Grenfell is with regard to ownership i.e is K&C the landlord, and/or the freeholder, are the flats all rented out to tenants, or are there some owner/occupiers, or private owners who rent out, or a combination of all these? Just trying to get my head around why the tenants would be consulted about the sprinklers in the first place. Tenants come and go, why bother consulting with them, isn't the onus on the landlord/freeholder/block management etc to make that decision and press ahead regardless?...

[Lordship 516]

Loz Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Lordship 516 Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

>

> > Not so - there is a common law obligation also.

> Hiding behind specifications & clearances is not

> > the whole story. A Developer/Architect/Builder

> has a duty of care & can be held responsible

> > regardless of what was specified - if it wasn't

> so there is a possibility of condoning mistakes &

> > even a conspiracy to defraud. The issue of

> self-certification of installations is

> > particularly important as the person doing the

> certification is employed by the builder - not a

> > healthy scenario & prone to pressure & abuse.

> >

> > I am working on a case where this very principle

> is at issue. Prime cost v Costs-in-Use v

> > Whole-of-Life-Costs where the Developer,

> Builder, consultants & others are being held to

> account

> > for poor work & specification that have lead to

> residents being required to stump up millions for

> > remediation after they have bought their flats.

> The residents have been winning the case and the

> > developers/architects/builders have requested an

> adjournment for settlement as the court has

> > indicated they will reward compensation even

> greater that has been claimed.

> >

> > A lot of the actors in this case will be held

> culpable & rest assured they are this very day &

> > every day for the future working with high

> priced lawyers to try to save them from jail &

> huge

> > compensation for the victims & their families.

>

>

> You are talking apples and oranges. There is a

> huge difference between deciding who is at fault

> for remedial work (civil case) vs corporate or

> individual manslaughter (criminal case). One is on

> the basis of a balance of probabilities and the

> other is on the basis of 'beyond all reasonable

> doubt'.

>

> If all the materials were certified for purpose,

> the more likely scenario is that the Borough of

> K&C will be found at civil fault and the treasury

> will fork out compensation. But no individuals

> will be found criminally responsible.

>

> If the materials were not certified (as Philip

> Hammond has said) then we may see some people in

> jail.

In the case I?m involved with a civil solution is being found. however the judge in chambers referred to possible consideration of criminal negligence.

In this awful Grenfell the consideration would all likely be criminal considerations of neglect, unjust enrichment, reckless behaviour, endangering human life etc...etc.

The civil cases will flow from all that.

Let's see how it all pans out - it won?t be pretty & some heads will roll for sure.

[JoeLeg]

It's nothing but the council pre-emptively trying to spread the blame. Sickening.

[uncleglen]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/18/tory-councillor-beaten-grenfell-tower-protesters-revealed-volunteer/

I blame Corbyn. The man has lost the plot

[miga]

Yeah, let's focus on this guy getting hit, that's the story here.

[rendelharris]

uncleglen Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/18/tory-co

> uncillor-beaten-grenfell-tower-protesters-revealed

> -volunteer/

> I blame Corbyn. The man has lost the plot

Well somebody certainly has...

[Lordship 516]

In all of this unfortunate debacle we have all lost sight of the main issue...

The care of the survivors & the recovery of the bodies of the dead so their families can mourn & bury the loved ones should be paramount. The government & the council are already watering down their commitments to house these people in a manner suitable to the wishes of those displaced & there appears to be a confusion surrounding the actual number of survivors. Someone needs to step up and get a grip.

These survivors will live with flashbacks & debilitating guilt just for having survived. They need support, not only direct support but indirect support by not having to witness bickering & partisan arguments about who holds the moral high ground. They need to be made doubly secure of unwavering support from all the community come what may.

The investigation must go ahead & get reported on regularly as facts are discovered but it ought not be accompanied with all this horrible commentary. Those responsible must be held to account & all documentation seized forthwith to show that the investigation is really serious and the investigation processed in a serious, diligent & respectful manner. Blame can come later when all the facts are opened up and examined in a forthright manner for all to see.

The horrible vitriol that I have read in some publications is neanderthal, pouring scorn on these poor unfortunate people just because of their race or origin or wealth status. This is not the reaction one would expect from a civilized society & unfortunately the country's supposed Prime Minister has been unable to lead & articulate a sympathetic response.

She appears unable to concentrate on anything much and this detracts from the job in hand - the apparatus of government needs leadership. It appears that , again, the Conservative Party interests come first, budgets & money second and the rest can just jolly well fit in.

It is not good enough & has somehow got to change.

[NewWave]

Lordship 516 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> In all of this unfortunate debacle we have all

> lost sight of the main issue...

>

> The care of the survivors & the recovery of the

> bodies of the dead so their families can mourn &

> bury the loved ones should be paramount. The

> government & the council are already watering down

> their commitments to house these people in a

> manner suitable to the wishes of those displaced &

> there appears to be a confusion surrounding the

> actual number of survivors. Someone needs to step

> up and get a grip.

>

> These survivors will live with flashbacks &

> debilitating guilt just for having survived.

> They need support, not only direct support but

> indirect support by not having to witness

> bickering & partisan arguments about who holds the

> moral high ground. They need to be made doubly

> secure of unwavering support from all the

> community come what may.

>

> The investigation must go ahead & get reported on

> regularly as facts are discovered but it ought not

> be accompanied with all this horrible commentary.

> Those responsible must be held to account & all

> documentation seized forthwith to show that the

> investigation is really serious and the

> investigation processed in a serious, diligent &

> respectful manner. Blame can come later when all

> the facts are opened up and examined in a

> forthright manner for all to see.

>

> The horrible vitriol that I have read in some

> publications is neanderthal, pouring scorn on

> these poor unfortunate people just because of

> their race or origin or wealth status. This is

> not the reaction one would expect from a civilized

> society & unfortunately the country's supposed

> Prime Minister has been unable to lead &

> articulate a sympathetic response.

>

> She appears unable to concentrate on anything much

> and this detracts from the job in hand - the

> apparatus of government needs leadership. It

> appears that , again, the Conservative Party

> interests come first, budgets & money second and

> the rest can just jolly well fit in.

>

> It is not good enough & has somehow got to change.

Well said!

And may I add that it is IMPERATIVE that these families are re-housed in the local area.

its where their lives are, shops that provide their native food and speak their language. schools doctors, friends places of worship and family.

I really understand how important having links to an area is-I grew up in Notting-Hill was born there as was my mother.

growing up my grandparents were down the road and I stayed in the area until both my parents passed away and I had no links any more to tie me.

These people need the comfort of the familiar.

[rendelharris]

A minor point, but not very impressed just now, when Radio 3 went off air for the minute's silence for the victims, to receive a call from Virgin Media right in the middle of it.

[DulwichLondoner]

The quality of constructions in this country is too poor. Part of it is demand (you can't be too picky or someone else will buy/rent instead of you), but most of it is due to poor regulations and even poorer enforcement, I believe.

Did you hear about the shambles with Bovis Homes? A quick google search will yield lots of results.

This Guardian article https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/mar/11/why-are-britains-new-homes-built-so-badly is not the only source commenting on some key differences between the UK and other countries; for example:

"In Germany, if there are evidenced problems with build quality the regulatory authorities can rescind the licence. This is a ?barrier to entry? related to craft skills and basic competence levels that we just do not have in the UK.?

My block of flats was built about 12 years ago. All corners are crooked, not at 90 degrees, and the ceiling is not straight; when I had bespoke furniture made, they had to measure the height of the ceiling in multiple points. Both here and in my previous flat, both about 10 years old, the holes made to make way for the pipes in the kitchen had not been sealed correctly, creating a beautiful hidden mouse super-highway from one floor to another.

If all of this is what is evident and visible, thinking of what is not visible sends shivers down my spine.

[sally buying]

Perhaps a recent example is Solomons passage.

A disaster from start to finish.

Building regs appeared to be complied with although the whole estate to be pulled down.

Officials out of their depth?

Wandle it seems, allegedly, had no control on the project. Although they were the Housing Association responsible for the construction.

How much help did these people get from Council, Cllrs and Harriet Harman?

[edhistory]

Is this a fake photograph?

[BrandNewGuy]

No, it's genuine

https://twitter.com/kctmo/status/837708770411151360

[Saffron]

Parker1 Wrote:

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> The guy who was jailed unzipped a body bag took 5

> photos of the deceased and uploaded them onto

> Facebook.

> He was jailed for his own safety as a backlash was

> feared.

He was arrested and held in custodgy purportedly for his own safety. He's been given a custodial sent for misuse of communications media.

It appears he's a local resident, who was reportedly making cups of tea for firefighters. It's been suggested that he may have thought he was "helping", after the body was left outside his flat for ~2hrs.

A custodial sentence is totally out of proportion for his crime, paricularly in light of the tragedy he witnessed, and the scale of the potential corporate manslaughter now unfolding.

[alice]

circulating photos likely to cause/ increase distress. i'd say he's committed a crime - being a local bloke that can make a cup of tea is sort of irrelevant.

[hpsaucey]

sally buying Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Perhaps a recent example is Solomons passage.

>

> A disaster from start to finish.

>

> Building regs appeared to be complied with

> although the whole estate to be pulled down.

>

> Officials out of their depth?

>

> Wandle it seems, allegedly, had no control on the

> project. Although they were the Housing

> Association responsible for the construction.

>

> How much help did these people get from Council,

> Cllrs and Harriet Harman?

Having lived in Solomon's Passage including through the period when we began to have constant fire warden patrols .... I think the sign off on building construction re: fire regs/ build conpliance etc. is murky esp given a change of contractors building the place. All leaves people pointing the finger at others.

HP

[hpsaucey]

Anyway - sorry - was off topic.

Hear hear to Lordship 516's post above.

HP

[JohnL]

Nick Paget-Brown (Leader of Kensington & Chelsea Coumcil) has resigned.

[edhistory]

JohnL Wrote:

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> Nick Paget-Brown (Leader of Kensington & Chelsea

> Coumcil) has resigned.

Has said he will resign when his replacement is in place.

[Dog duck]

...and hopefully 'Cock' Feilding Mellen... (check out his suitability and lifestyle

[uncleglen]

Here's one potential

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/29/grenfell-fraud-man-arrested-suspicion-claiming-had-lost-family/

[alice]

Fuck off