Brexit View

[JohnL]

Blah Blah Wrote:

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> Yes, Sturgeon might be the voice of reason in that

> coalition. But the price might be another

> referendum on independence for Scotland, although

> I don't think there is appetite for that in

> Scotland. Some think that part of the swing away

> from the SNP has been because of the obsession

> with independence. I also think the Tories and esp

> the brexiteers, are terrified of a Labour SNP

> coalition, and also now see that as a real

> posibility. The two year transition deal is

> designed to make sure that the Tories, if

> parliament goes the full term, will have had

> complete control of Brexit and made sure we are

> fully out just by election time, without the

> impacts of a cliff having hit yet, to affect their

> electoral chances. It's a plan based purely on

> political expediency, not what is best for the

> country. Lots can go very wrong in the meantime

> and force an early election of course.

At that time I cared about the UK - now it feels like the

UK is broken and I'm not that bothered if it split up into

chunks (which would gradually get consumed by the EU under

more federal agreements anyway)

[Blah Blah]

But the EU federal thing is a red herring anyway. If nothing else, Maastricht showed that the UK have always had a position from which to negotiate exemptions. And TTIP was brought down by public lobbying so that just enough of the 27 member states said no. Indeed the UK and Cameron had to agree to exempt the NHS from any TTIP deal (due to public concern) something it was perfectly possible to do. This is another huge area of lack of knowledge about EU processes for legislation. Even on immigration, we have always had the power to deport any EU national who has not found a job after three months (other EU countries do it). This idea that free movement means anyone can come and we have no way of sending them away is just not correct.

[Alan Medic]

This is Article 7 which not many people were made aware of it would seem.

[JohnL]

So during the AfD (right wing) party news conference after their breakthrough in Germany the Co-Leader picks up her bag, smiles and walks out :)

Brexit link - Merkel is going to be spending the next few months organising internal politics.

[Loz]

The AfD are but an irritant. Merkel main job will be to get a coalition together. The best bet seems to be CDU (Merkel's party), the FDP and the Greens. Which is a bit like a Tory/LibDem/Green coalition - unthinkable in the UK.

Sounds like Germany's politics are a bit more grown up than ours.

But, yes, Merkel will be busy for a few months and Brexit will move to the back-burner for her.

[Alan Medic]

So Labour can't find a place for Brexit,in its top 8 things to discuss at conference. Corbyn is being slippery. Possibly no better than May in that he appear to crave power. Such a shame there is no one to represent most of the people of the country, just selfish loons.

[JohnL]

Alan Medic Wrote:

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> So Labour can't find a place for Brexit,in its top

> 8 things to discuss at conference. Corbyn is being

> slippery. Possibly no better than May in that he

> appear to crave power. Such a shame there is no

> one to represent most of the people of the

> country, just selfish loons.

Well all the things he wants to nationalise can't be done

under EU law technically - although France has got away with it.

[miga]

Not disputing your claim but whenever someone says "can't be done under EU law/rules" these days I wince. (Like all those things we couldn't do because of the Eurocrats but actuall could if someone had pulled their fingers out and worked within the rules).

Corbyn's anti-EU stance is ideological, not practical, and in that regard similar to the Tory swivel-eyed loons.

[JohnL]

miga Wrote:

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> Not disputing your claim but whenever someone says

> "can't be done under EU law/rules" these days I

> wince. (Like all those things we couldn't do

> because of the Eurocrats but actuall could if

> someone had pulled their fingers out and worked

> within the rules).

>

> Corbyn's anti-EU stance is ideological, not

> practical, and in that regard similar to the Tory

> swivel-eyed loons.

I agree - we seem to not try - just blame EU.

Corbyn is ideological - it's difficult to criticise him for that as it's what he has always been. He has a power base in Labour now though. It's worth noticing that everywhere he goes Remainers with EU flags are following him :)

[miga]

His beliefs have made him attractive in this supposedly post-ideological world.

I just meant, whether or not he can some of what he wants under EU rules is besides the point for him.

[Blah Blah]

It is not against EU rules to nationalise anything (another myth spread the left this time). The issue is one of monopolies and competition. So under EU rules, you can nationalise a railway, as long as there is competition. That might be tricky with a railway (assuming you want to nationalise every line) but with other things like an energy company for example, you could have a state owned provider competing alongside other providers. The consumer then has the choice.

For me, putting all that trade at risk for the folly of nationalising a railway is wreckless. And listening to the speeches yesterday, it is becoming very clear that a Corbyn and McDonnell government will either have to borrow heavily to deliver all of these promises, or not deliver them at all.

[malumbu]

Well I suppose it us no different to Grayling cancelling the electrification of the network, makes me angry.

[Loz]

Is today's Bombardier issue a sign of future things to come once we leave Europe, especially if Corbyn gets in and starts subsidising some struggling industries, as he's promised?

[JohnL]

Well EU and USA have been accusing Boeing and Airbus of getting government subsidies - but no tariffs just moaning. Maybe something to do with trade agreements, but to me USA have picked on the little guy (Canada) and they must have known Northern Ireland was collateral (and with the DUP issue it's like a kick below the belt to the Government)

UK won't/can't have as much clout as the EU - Every time they fine a large company (like Apple) I can't imagine the UK doing that alone.

[JohnL]

Canada press questioning if Canada should be in Aerospace. If Airbus pulls out of UK - I doubt UK alone could compete in that industry either.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/sep/03/britain-aerospace-sector-could-be-priced-out-after-brexit

[Blah Blah]

This highlights perfectly the complexity of global trade. It only takes one element of the chain to be adversely affected and the whole thing falls. The single market, for all the faults of the EU, is the only large market in the world which offers seemless free trade between a sizeable group of nations. We pay around ?12bn a year to be part of it. If our exporters had to pay WTO tariffs on the things they export to the EU, it would add around ?40bn a year to their costs. And yes, as a body, the EU has clout because of the size of the market it protects. The UK on its own is a tiny market. There is no way we can expect to get favourable deals with markets much bigger than our own. 37% of our exports to the EU are in cars, pharmaceuticals, raw materials and nuclear parts - all things that the US produces themselves. There is no way that the US is going to open themselves up to imports of things that compete directly wwith their home grown businesses doing the same thing.

[miga]

Brexit will be cancelled.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Anyone see 'Brexit Reality' on Channel 4 last night? It demonstrated two things: You should never underestimate how ill informed some people are, and think very carefully before visiting Wakefield.

[Loz]

That made me laugh, rah.

didn't watch that, but I did watch Question Time. When Peter Hitchens is the most reasonable voice on a QT panel, something has gone badly wrong with the country.

[miga]

Nothing went wrong with the country at/before referendum. The referendum just made us see our arse.

But the "London intelligentsia" and the "elite bubble" will organise the appearance of Brexit, while doing the only sane self-preserving thing it can, not actually leaving. You're welcome Sunderland.

[JohnL]

Henry Bolton elected as new leader of the Premier League, I mean UKIP

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/29/henry-bolton-elected-new-leader-of-ukip

who even is he ?

[Loz]

From what I have read, file Henry Whittle under "Least worst candidate" - he seems to be more about Brexit than harassing foreigners in general and Muslims in particular.

There were, unsurprisingly, some right nutters in line to take over from the Nutter. I was disappointed to see that the candidate who campaigned on a policy of "developing spacecraft to allow humans to mine the asteroid belt" failed to get elected.

[Blah Blah]

UKIP is now surely finished? Once they no longer have those MEPs they will have no legitimate claim to media attention either. Hopefully they will fade into obscurity. Even Farage thinks the party has served its purpose.

I found Question Time painful. The rent a mob audience seems to be a typical part of the show now. Is it just me or do the brexit voters on there always seem to be aggressive towards and intolerant of any kind of debate? I noted the young guy who couldn't understand why we can't just leave. Does he read nothing, watch nothing, listen to nothing, understand nothing? And then the other guy who wouldn't let Ayesha Harazika answer, and had to be put in his place when she called him a bully.

Peter Hitchens is a curious one, because he seems to be far more reasonable these days and talks a lot of sense. Basically he is speaking for the middle ground, which neither the Tories nor Labour are representing right now. What interested me though is how he seems more angry at the Tory party for their failings.

[pato]

Loz Wrote:

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> From what I have read, file Henry Whittle under

> "Least worst candidate" - he seems to be more

> about Brexit than harassing foreigners in general

> and Muslims in particular.

>

> There were, unsurprisingly, some right nutters in

> line to take over from the Nutter. I was

> disappointed to see that the candidate who

> campaigned on a policy of "developing spacecraft

> to allow humans to mine the asteroid belt" failed

> to get elected.

Is it UKIP the problem now?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/30/brussels-uk-deported-eu-citizens

[malumbu]

Thought Question Time was quite illuminating. From a place that would have been old school Labour 30 years abo (East Dulwich please be aware that there is a world out there) many expressing stong views about the madness of Corbyn's Labour.

Good to get some balance.

Yes the rabid Brexiteering makes me shout. And struck both by a recent visit to Gdansk/Danzig and the Channel 4 Documentary retracing the steps of those crossing occupied Europe during WW2 about the harm of popularism/extremism.