parent and child spaces in sainsbury's car park

[Timster]

This thread is very funny. I think Damian H is the Rosa Parks of the childless.

Just who is suffering from Sainsburys' discriminatory, capitalist scheme to lure parents of young children into their store with the promise of more convenient parking (apart from Damian H's blood pressure)?

And on a serious note, does anyone really think that an ED mother or father would start challenging someone who had parked there who did have a 'genuine need' to do so?

[Loz]

Timster Wrote:

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> And on a serious note, does anyone really think that an ED mother or father would start

> challenging someone who had parked there who did have a 'genuine need' to do so?

Well... they would 'tut'. Possibly audibly.

[DaveR]

I'm perfectly content to hurl abuse from the sidelines rather than contribute to the debate, because there is no debate. There are a few people whingeing about people with no children using parent and child spaces, and a few others whingeing back about parents and their sense of entitlement.

And then there's Damian. Purple with indignation about the flagrant breach of his human rights. If he had a car, by golly he'd like to park it in a super-wide space, right by the front door. In fact he'd like to park it in the dairy aisle, next to the Laughing Cow cheese triangles. That would show them, all those selfish mums who glide serenely through the doors he holds open, without even a glance in his direction. Oh yes.

[GSJ57]

Well said, DaveR. I have been trying to find a polite way to respond to Damian H, but your post says it all.

[FeelNeedlesGrip77]

m, m, m, !!

[Loz]

I think Monty Python is rather appropriate at this stage...

(Walks down the hall. Opens door.)

Q: WHAT DO YOU WANT?

M: Well, I was told outside that...

Q: Don't give me that, you snotty-faced heap of parrot droppings!

M: What?

Q: Shut your festering gob, you tit! Your type really makes me puke, you vacuous, coffee-nosed, maloderous, pervert!!!

M: Look, I CAME HERE FOR AN ARGUMENT, I'm not going to just stand...!!

Q: OH, oh I'm sorry, but this is abuse.

M: Oh, I see, well, that explains it.

Q: Ah yes, you want room 12A, Just along the corridor.

M: Oh, Thank you very much. Sorry.

Q: Not at all.

M: Thank You.

(Under his breath) Stupid git!!

[mockney piers]

Damian, you've never worked for any notorious US security contractors have you?

Just asking....

[Damian H]

I have such a wonderful optimism for the future of ED when we see all these wonderful people behaving with such complete self centredness and a refusal to entertain the faintest possibility that other people have different opinions and priorities and are irritated and inconvenienced by your behaviour, whilst simultaneously decrying the selfishness of others who don't place you exclusively at the centre of social planning andngive younyour every whim. Is that a whiff of hypocrisy in the air? More than a whiff I think.

My blood pressure is fine thank you. Strange and very telling that some posters here can only explain away a dissenting opinion by hallucinating some purple, incandescent Daily Mail reader. Still, I guess that is a comfortable illusion for you.

I note now that civilservant, Dave and GSJ57 are attempting to beat a dignified retreat using the old transparent ruse of "It's not worth my time," or "I'll just pretend it's all so funny that there is nothing to say and I'll just agree with others on the same side as me." For the reality of those arguments we should read "Blimey, everything I have tried to say has been shot down and I can't come up with a response. How do I get out of this? I know, despite having engaged in the debate so far, I'll now pretend it's beneath me." A rather predictable and disingenuous strategy.

Tell you what, continue to think what you think and behave how you behave. Ignore this opportunity to engage in a little bit of honest self-appraisal and consider the information you now have about the impact of your behaviour on others. Maintain your comfortable illusion that you and your children are the centre of the universe. Try to believe the nonsensical notion that I am a one man army putting forward this viewpoint (by ignoring the fact that this and other similar threads have thrived long before I engaged in them). You are entitled to do all of this rather than engage in reflective thought and consideration for others - but there is a price. Not a big one but a price nonetheless (and one big enough to have kicked off this whole thread).

That price is the fact that there is clearly a good number of other East Dulwich residents and business people whose good-will! Support and cooperation you haemorrhage when you behave in this manner. So next time someone parks in a parent/child parking space, looks with anger at your screaming child in a cafe or wine bar (while you ignore it and instead sit chatting with a friend), has a face like thunder when you are paying your bill and they are looking at the feeding frenzy your child has deposited under the table that they will have to sweep up, holds open a door for you and your buggie and pointedly says "You are welcome!" when you breeze past without a word of appreciation etc etc, you might want to consider that their lack of forebearance or patience is due to the fact that day and daily they put up with the sort of selfish, pompous entitlement that has been discussed on this thread.

Alternatively you could engage in the reflection I have suggested and consider the follwoing:

"I can understand that a hard-working waitress, rushed off her feet during a long shift, might be a bit teed off at the fact that I have allowed my precious angel to push half his/her dinner onto the floor and have made no attempt to clear it up."

"Gosh, since I am a stay at home mum and go to the local cafes to meet my friends with children, I hadn't actually stopped to think that some of the people there working on laptops and taking advantage of the free Wi-fi (clearly not supplied for the benefit of toddlers) may actually be hard-working self employed people who find it extremely difficult to focus when my two year old is screaming because I am ignoring him or is repeatedly banging his Tommy Tiptree mug on the table."

"You know it is nice from time to time to be able to get a large parking space but I realise I am lucky that they are available at all and I won't complain when I don't get one. Many people have it much worse than me."

"Now that I think about it, I can't really expect people to behave like gentlemen and women when I respond to such kindness as if it is an entitlement."

"You know, I had never thought really about the fact that me and a friend walking abreast down a pavement with our buggies means other people have to step into the road. Maybe we will keep out eyes open a little or even smile and apologise when we do inconvenience others."

I suggest even ten minutes a day engaging in the above suggested contemplation might help you grow as a civilised and courteous person much more than going onto EDF and attempting to gang up on and insult anyone who doesn't see you as the be all and end all of human existence.

[mockney piers]

soooo.....it boils down to you hate children then.

Oh bless, and your one time urban london paradise has become suburban nappy valley hell....my heart quite literally bleeds liberally for your pain.

[Loz]

It's worth noting at this point that the 'fines' (actually 'invoices') that Sainsburys hand out are pretty much legally unenforceable (unless they can name and prove who the driver of the car was and therefore establish who the 'contract' was with). There are many websites out there with the right form letters to send if you get one.

So IANAL, but that pretty much means you can park in the spaces if you want to.

I would say that this also applies to the disabled spaces, but I think parking in those is reprehensible if you are not disabled. So don't.

[Damian H]

mockney piers Wrote:

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> soooo.....it boils down to you hate children then.

>

> Oh bless, and your one time urban london paradise

> has become suburban nappy valley hell....my heart

> quite literally bleeds liberally for your pain.

This is truly pathetic. Please tell me this is tongue in cheek. Is the only way you can understand people objecting to being treated like second-class citizens to assume they hate children. I mean, if you are serious and this is not a troll post, your comment is beyond sad and stupid.

[GSJ57]

I am not attempting to 'beat a dignified retreat' - but I truly do not understand why you feel so strongly about this. It has been said many times in this thread - the parking spaces are not there because parents think they are special. They are there to make the whole experience of shopping with small children a little easier. Of course it's a marketing tool on Sainsburys part, but if my children were still small I would be very grateful those parking places existed.

[Damian H]

Loz Wrote:

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> It's worth noting at this point that the 'fines'

> (actually 'invoices') that Sainsburys hand out are

> pretty much legally unenforceable (unless they can

> name and prove who the driver of the car was and

> therefore establish who the 'contract' was with).

> There are many websites out there with the right

> form letters to send if you get one.

>

> So IANAL, but that pretty much means you can park

> in the spaces if you want to.

>

> I would say that this also applies to the disabled

> spaces, but I think parking in those is

> reprehensible if you are not disabled. So don't.

I quite agree with this and I think it was perhaps pointed out before? And I wonder if Sainsburys are going to invoice themselves for their decision to plonk promotional stalls on the spaces?

[srisky]

Gosh, since I am a stay at home mum and go to the local cafes to meet my friends with children, I hadn't actually stopped to think that some of the people there working on laptops and taking advantage of the free Wi-fi (clearly not supplied for the benefit of toddlers) may actually be hard-working self employed people who find it extremely difficult to focus when my two year old is screaming because I am ignoring him or is repeatedly banging his Tommy Tiptree mug on the table."

If you 'chose' to work in a public place (other than the library) then I don't think you can complain about the noise from other patrons. I appreciate not everyone can afford to have the internet at home but that's another topic.

[Damian H]

GSJ57 Wrote:

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> I am not attempting to 'beat a dignified retreat'

> - but I truly do not understand why you feel so

> strongly about this. It has been said many times

> in this thread - the parking spaces are not there

> because parents think they are special. They are

> there to make the whole experience of shopping

> with small children a little easier. Of course

> it's a marketing tool on Sainsburys part, but if

> my children were still small I would be very

> grateful those parking places existed.

I think that various posts have elaborated the fact that this thread does not exist in isolation and that the response of a number of posters is as it is due to the local zeitgeist which exhibits the selfishness and sense of entitlement that has been mentioned.

In terms of gratitude for larger parking spaces - I imagine anyone who goes shopping would be grateful for them. The issue as I see it is that many parents DO THINK THEY ARE SPECIAL and entitled to behave in the local community in ways that inconvenience others, without them or their children being subject to any censure or restraint whatsoever.

The originating posts in this thread reflect exactly that sort of entitlement - rather than being appreciative that such spaces are available at any time, there was complete outrage that those without children had the gall to use them. That sense of entitlement and the "my family and children are more important than other people without children" attitude which is evidenced locally day and daily provide the background which for many people makes this thread a particularly sensitive one.

We could equally ask why this issue is so important to the OP that it was started at all. We could equally ask why the incoident in the MIND shop was perceived as being so significant that someone actually went to the tabloids with it? That was another example of this absurd entitlement - an individual was so incensed at her 'right' to breast-feed in a changhing room (designed for trying on clothes and one of only two in the shop) that when that was thwrated (admittedly in a very rude manner) it had to become a cause celebre in the national press. The self-centred, unboundaried, entitled and selfish attitude evidence by the person responsible for that embarrassed a mental health charity in the nation's eyes and possibly jeapordised the employment of the worker in the shop who may have had mental health issues himself (MIND often employs people with a mental health history).

For that poster her indignation and rage at not having her and her child's 'rights' put at the very top of the agenda was placed as being a higher priority than a person's employment, possibly their mental health and the reputation of a charity. When the thread discussing the matter on this forum did not universally endorse her outrage and made the criticisms I have mentioned here, was there any sort of reflection or consideration that maybe there were other people's rights and agendas involved as well? No. On the contrary the person involved had a hissy fit and threw her toys out of the pram that anyone should have the audacity to disagree with her entitlement to do as she pleased.

That type of attitude is replicatred in small er ways perhaps, but replicated nonetheless day and daily in ED so when a thread like this with the same whingeing entitlement comes along some people have already had it up to here.

[Damian H]

srisky Wrote:

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> Gosh, since I am a stay at home mum and go to the

> local cafes to meet my friends with children, I

> hadn't actually stopped to think that some of the

> people there working on laptops and taking

> advantage of the free Wi-fi (clearly not supplied

> for the benefit of toddlers) may actually be

> hard-working self employed people who find it

> extremely difficult to focus when my two year old

> is screaming because I am ignoring him or is

> repeatedly banging his Tommy Tiptree mug on the

> table."

>

> If you 'chose' to work in a public place (other

> than the library) then I don't think you can

> complain about the noise from other patrons. I

> appreciate not everyone can afford to have the

> internet at home but that's another topic.

So if I decided to stick my iphone on speaker and blast out a bit of hip-hop no-one would be entitled to ask me to turn it down or off? After all, if someone goes to a cafe or bar and everyone is entitled to act with complete disregard for others there is no reason why I should not play mymusic if I want to.

[mockney piers]

Just trying to get to the root cause of your apoplexia,

It can't be the parental sense of entitlement, because all I've seen is a few parents grateful for a service offered.

Judging by the above posts I detect is a deep well of resentment that anyone who has sullied this world with yet more children actually dares to take them out into the public domain, poisoning the environment of the childless*.

Interestingly are you equally put out by young lovers walking hand in hand on pavements or is it just the buggies?

*although I notice the self employed worker feels a sense of entitlement to the wifi essentially provided as a marketing exercise. I'm pretty sure broadband and a router are taxable expenses you know

[civilservant]

Dear ED parents, do you think that Damian H might be placated if we were to go home NOW and execute our children because they are the unique cause of our wicked sense of entitlement and greed for extra-wide parking spaces?

After all, it's been done before e.g. massacre of the innocents, Rwanda...

[mockney piers]

I thought that was more ancient Judea; Rwanda was more massacre of the Tutsis.

[civilservant]

no, MP, that was two examples, but thanks for helping to clarify

[mockney piers]

oh yes, silly me, i read that more as an address like 'London, England'.

I think Dunblane would be a more accurate reflection of the possibilities mind you!

I say that in the full knowledge that nothing I can say could actually get Damian more mad than the sight of a double buggie, a parent and child emerging from a car in a parent and child space, or the sound of childrens' laughter, already does.

[civilservant]

when you put it like that, it's easy to see why some people might envy us parents our instant access to childish laughter and other small joys - poor old Damian H

[Damian H]

If the stupidity of your last few comments even had the saving grace of wit or humour, they might have been worth the effort of posting them. Sadly, they haven't.

I notice your attempt civilservant to recruit more posters to your strategy of harrying a dissenting voice rather than addressing the issues. Again, very transparent and indicative that you have no capacity to engage in the argument. It must be very frustrating, I understand, to hear that your own little world-view and personal Eden are not as perfect as you would like and I imagine it is you currently with the purple face and elevated BP when you are not able to bully or insult someone into agreeing with you or keeping quiet. Hence your call for help. In effect you are saying "Some one is saying something I don't like to hear. help me shout at him until he goes away." A childish response is, I think, the best description of that approach.

Also, your BP must be well and truly up if you are now engaging again rather than considering it a waste of your time.

MP - your posts are really no better. Again, no attempt to address the issues.

As I have already noted, you are free to pretend that no-one has the right to legitimately hold an opinion different from yours and derive whatever comfort you take from such denial. Equally, you are entitled to avert your gaze from the fact that, whether they constitute your personal social circle or not, there are many people and local business people who find the behaviour I have described annoying, inconsiderate and plain rude.

[mockney piers]

ok back to the issues

ISSUE: parent and child spaces exist in sainsbury's

MOST PEOPLE IN THE WORLD: Oh yes, I see, it has extra space at the side, I can understand why that would be useful, and there are only 10 of them so it's not as if it really puts anyone out is it.

PARENTS: Oh how lovely, I wish someone had thought of that before

REASONABLE DISSENTERS: either a) ok, I get it but they could have put them further away, why should i have to walk further because I don't have a child

or b) well, they could at least make them available to everyone after 7, or both

APOPLETICS: That's infringing my human rights that is, blah blah blah ad nauseum, and apparently ad infinitum.

err that's it, but hey, on to page 10.

[Amoeba]

Damian H, since the parking spaces are just one of seemingly many manifestations of the "whingeing entitlement" that you are so keen to whinge about, why not start up a new thread along the lines of "All those with children think they are better than me, but actually I'm better than them". You could include your top 10 things that others do or stand for which you, of course, are too good a person not to. Perhaps then we could really get to the bottom of your issue with people who do not live how you want them to, or perhaps benefit from something that you are not able to benefit from.

Whilst I am all in favour of "live and let live", you do rather come across as "live and let live on my terms" which is considerably less appealing.

As for the parent and child spaces, for whatever the reason, they are as they are and so should be respected as such. If you have a problem with them, talk to Sainsbury's. If you have a problem with the sense of entitlement that parents have when it comes to using them....don't. Of course they feel entitled, they are parent and child spaces.