The Real Honor Oak Recreation ground thread!

[such a life]

A burial audit has apparently been carried out by Southwark Council and proposals are due to be put to a meeting this month. Friends of HOP Recreation Ground understand that the next place planned for burials is the area on the old Southwark Nursery site behind the big wooden gates guarding all the diggers. This has space for 600 which according to SC will last a year. Then, since they state they acquired the whole area for burial over a century ago, they plan to take the Rec.

This destruction of a popular local green space which is used fully by the community is unacceptable and the Friends group have launched a campaign for the Rec to be protected.

Sign the e-petition here:

http://www.petitionbuzz.com/petitions/savehonoroakparkrec

If you want to save our park, sign the petition

http://honoroakparkrecreationground.blogspot.com/

[languagelounger]

Hello

Here we go again. Anyone remember 1991?

It's not Honor Oak Park Recreation Ground, it's Honor Oak Recreation Ground, and has been known by this name since it was opened.

The area historically called Honor Oak straddles both sides of the Rec. The Honor Oak Estate, on the opposite (easterly) side is in SE4. Honor Oak Recreation Ground is the only open space for thousands of people on this huge council estate, including thousands of kids who need it - not an extra - they need it, for essential physical development. HOR is also the local park for lots of people in Crofton Park and Nunhead.

In 1955 the then Minister for Local Government was absolutely clear that this space should never be used for burials. It should, he said, become the Hampstead Heath of south London. What may have been thought in the 19th century, when the land was used for burials because it was then in the middle of the countryside, is completely irrelevant now.

I'm curious to know why Southwark is still persisting with this totally outdated and discredited attempt to close down an inner city public recreation space and use it for burials. No other council in the land is doing this, the cemetery managers' professional body had concluded it is definitely not the solution and central government is promoting increased use of open space in the inner city as a health essential.

Please bear in mind too that Southwark has already taken two big chunks of land from this space for burials. When they took the first tranche of Honor Oak Rec in 1991, they said that there would be no call to ask for more land within the lifetimes of anyone present at the council meeting. And they told the same story again when they came back for the next bit. They are now on track to use up the whole site within 30 years, gone forever, if we are daft enough to let them get away with it.

We now know, of course (see press reports re High Court case, last year) that Southwark's former Cemetery Manager (the only unqualified person to hold such a position in the entire country) had a nice little arrangement with local criminals to allow them to dump toxic waste on the site. Local councillors and MPs were told about this as long ago as 1997, and refused to take any action to investigate or stop it. I have been told that the relevant records of the council meetings have been "disappeared" from Southwark Council. As has a large survey of the site, which Groundwork Southwark were paid for, out of our Council Tax, at huge expense, which was quoted to justify using the land for burials. At the time, no member of the public could get hold of the original of this large survey. Just a brief summary. Apparently neither Groundwork Southwark, the specialist environmental surveyors who carried it out, nor Southwark Council's environmental services department, nor any of the elected councillors, managed to hold on to a single copy of the report. Which is a great shame, because there is a question that really needs to be answered still, which is, how could a firm of specialist environmental surveyors and ground contamination experts manage to miss the now established fact, that the site they were surveying was being used as a toxic waste dump?

The cost of the clean up from the toxic dumping is running into many millions. And we are paying for it. Has any of the huge sums that we know must have been paid in bribes, been recovered? How likely is it that only one Council official was involved? Anybody?

That they are now coming back to try to take what is left of the public park just shows how hopeless and helpless this area is in the face of the most obvious and blatant corruption. The Councillor for the Honor Oak/Crofton Park side last time was one Margaret Moran. That's the same Margaret Moran who went on to become an MP and has since been disgraced and forced to resign. She was also caught out by Channel 4, offering to sell her services as an MP to an undercover reporter. How I laugh now (not) when I think that the public were turning to such abysmal characters to try to defend this wonderful place.

I don't suppose there are any Egyptians living in the area who could lend a hand with some tips on how to deal with corrupt and unaccountable thugs?

(edited - re Minister for Local Government, and to clarify was Channel 4 that caught Margaret Moran red handed).

[bonniebird]

It says the petition doesn't exist

[PaperBagBadger]

Fantastic background and analysis,LanguageLounger.

Please do get in touch with [email protected] to tell us more!

That's not the whole link for the e-petition, although you can get onto it via the Friends of Honor Oak Park Recreation Ground blog link in SuchALife's post.

Here's the full e-petition link:

www.petitionbuzz.com/petitions/savehonoroakparkrec

We obviously need as many Southwark residents as possible to sign as possible.

[such a life]

Wow how intresting LanguageLounger thanks for this.

Sorry that the link wasn't working anyone.

[fmiu]

Thank you so much for this brilliant post. I am so heartened that we are not alone in our anger at Southwark Council and Cemetery Managers for their total negligence, corruption and continued belief that they continue to operate in this underhand and appaling manner. This is the best summary of what Southwark have been getting away with for years. The most worrying rumour that we have heard is that they intend to flog some of the land to property developers to try to recoup the millions they have spent clearing up the toxic waste that their Cemetery Manager allowed in in the first place. Our time will come and they need to realise the local community are a well informed force to be reckoned with. Fight the Power...

[louisiana]

Fascinating account.

What status does the land have? Is it Metropolitan Open Land? Borough Open Land?

[PaperBagBadger]

If you didn't catch the feature on the Today programme this morning, listen again here:

radio4todayHORec

Roll on to 1:34.33

Great soundbite David Stephens from the coffee shop!

[Oggie]

According to Southwark's website the area is designated as one of the borough's smaller parks, as is Goose Green and Brenchley Gardens. As the website says: Honor Oak was preserved as open space in the late 1890s. The site includes two football pitches, two tennis courts, a playground and picnic area.

We need to stop Southwark taking away our playing fields and children's playgrounds!

[computedshorty]

It came to pass.

Extracts from the biographies:

Alderman William Brenchley J.P. (1858 ? 1938)

William Brenchley was born on 5th June 1858 at 1 Hereford Place, in the registration district of Mile End Old Town, in London?s Docklands...

Though from a working class background, William was well educated, literate and trained as a school master. In the 1881 Census he is recorded as a teacher, lodging with the Wilson family in Stoke Newington. However, shortly after this he moved to Camberwell, where he was to remain for the rest of his life, to take the position of Class Master at Bellenden Road School. He lived at 11 Gordon Road, Camberwell, and on 7th October 1882, William married Elizabeth Beckett...

In 1891, William succeeded Mr J Tavener as Headmaster of the nearby Dulwich Hamlet School for boys, where he stayed until 1901. William?s log book as Headmaster, which begins on August 24th 1891, is written in his own clear, fluent hand. He describes his constant efforts to improve the school buildings, the curriculum and the pupils? work, noting with pride the excellent comments on the standard of education from the inspectors of the School Board for London. By 1894, the school curriculum covered geography, mechanics, French, algebra, English and science (physical, mechanical, botanical and physiological)...

William was also an important and pivotal member of the local community, the President of the East Lambeth National Union of Teachers, and keen to record on 2nd May 1904 that the London County Council had taken over the running of schools and education. At about this time he was also a member of the committee which founded the Nunhead and Dulwich sub-libraries, and the Camberwell School of Arts and Crafts...

William?s career outside of education was eventful and illustrious, shaped by an aim to change the social inequalities of the day...

For this reason, and as a local resident in an area where the population was expanding rapidly, William Brenchley became aware of the need for a new cemetery. Ordinary people at this time often could not afford expensive funerary costs and were unable to bury their dead in a dignified manner: all that was available to them were unmarked paupers? graves. William was Chairman of the Educational Endowments and Burial Committees, and also Chair of the Cemeteries Sub-Committee, and as such made the decision to establish the Camberwell New Cemetery at Honor Oak, which began at the top of One Tree Hill, and is still in use today...

The New Cemetery, a 61 acre site, was opened in 1927, and its chapel, the largest in London, designed by the architects Aston Webb and Sons, was completed in 1928. It was an ambitious project, and a costly one, as the Camberwell Borough Council Minutes for Wednesday October 19th 1932 state that the total expenditure to date on the new cemetery was ?98,880 13/- 6d; the amount spent in the borough on new housing over the same period was nil...

Alderman William and Camberwell Borough Council devised a more affordable system for local people by digging graves which could accommodate eight coffins, with space above for eight small headstones. However, these early graves quickly filled with water once dug, as they were positioned at the top of the hill, which was covered in a thick layer of clay. It is said that mourners were often soaked by the splashing of coffins lowered into graves full of water. Then, over time, according to local folklore, the occupants of these higher graves slid down the incline of the hill and were later discovered at the bottom of lower, freshly dug graves...

Alderman William achieved his life?s ambition to complete fifty years of service in public life, and his death left a vacancy on the Council in what was then Alleyn (Dulwich) Ward. The Camberwell and Peckham Times remarked that there would be ?nobody to take his place,? whilst The South London Press called him the ?Father of Camberwell Council?.

In Alderman William?s honour, the road between the park and the cemetery was also named Brenchley Gardens.

? Amanda Thomas, 2003.

[PaperBagBadger]

Interesting bit of social history there.

If you want to sign the petition to keep Honor Oak Rec an open green space for all to enjoy today and for the future, go to the Friends blog:

Friends of HonorOak Park Recreation Ground

where you can sign the e-petition and view Saturday's Radio 4 Today item

Or go straight to:

Save Honor Oak Park Recreation Ground Petition

778 signatures to date!

[PaperBagBadger]

The campaign to save Honor Oak Recreation Ground has reached the national news this week!

The e-petition has gone over 1000 and there are many paper petitions being signed out there in the community.

Southwark Council are threatening to use the invaluable open green space, Honor Oak Recreation ground, for burials.

In case anyone is unsure of where these are, they are behind Honor Oak station - an oasis of playing fields in the middle of Camberwell New Cemetery - a result of some serious bad planning in the past.

Southwark maintain they acquired this area for burial in 1901. But times change and this is the only open space available in this part of the community for football, training, sports days for local schools, walking and playing. We know how busy Peckham Rye park is, and Honor Oak Rec is just as busy. Southwark Council list it on their website as one of their smaller parks. They have no sustainable burial policy so even if they used the Rec, which park would next be in danger of being nibbled away for burials? There are many areas of re-usable areas in Camberwell New, Camberwell Old and Nunhead cemeteries and of course, there is the 3 acre site on the old Southwark Nursery site next to HOP station. This piece of land has now been cleared of the illegal dumped mounds (at a cost of ?3.4 million) and it was thought that this was the next area for burial. Southwark have carried out a burial audit and are apparently putting together options for the future. Honor Oak Recreation Ground should not be even considered for this possibility.

The local community is giving that message to the council - loud and clear!

Sign the petition on:

savehonoroakrecpetition

Check out the Friends blog (where you can listen to a piece from the Today programme, watch BBC London News, read a SLP/Mercury article .....

http://honoroakparkrecreationground.blogspot.com/]

And check out SE23 Forum for more discussion!

http://www.se23.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=4090

[PaperBagBadger]

The campaign to save Honor Oak Recreation Ground has reached the national news this week!

The e-petition has gone over 1000 and there are many paper petitions being signed out there in the community.

Southwark Council are threatening to use the invaluable open green space, Honor Oak Recreation ground, for burials.

In case anyone is unsure of where these are, they are behind Honor Oak station - an oasis of playing fields in the middle of Camberwell New Cemetery - a result of some serious bad planning in the past.

Southwark maintain they acquired this area for burial in 1901. But times change and this is the only open space available in this part of the community for football, training, sports days for local schools, walking and playing. We know how busy Peckham Rye park is, and Honor Oak Rec is just as busy. Southwark Council list it on their website as one of their smaller parks. They have no sustainable burial policy so even if they used the Rec, which park would next be in danger of being nibbled away for burials? There are many areas of re-usable areas in Camberwell New, Camberwell Old and Nunhead cemeteries and of course, there is the 3 acre site on the old Southwark Nursery site next to HOP station. This piece of land has now been cleared of the illegal dumped mounds (at a cost of ?3.4 million) and it was thought that this was the next area for burial. Southwark have carried out a burial audit and are apparently putting together options for the future. Honor Oak Recreation Ground should not be even considered for this possibility.

The local community is giving that message to the council - loud and clear!

Sign the petition on:

honoakrecpetition

Check out the Friends blog (where you can listen to a piece from the Today programme, watch BBC London News, read a SLP/Mercury article .....

friendshonoakparkrecblog

And check out SE23 Forum for more discussion!

SE23 Forum

[languagelounger]

Hi, just to mention, it's funny the way Southwark Council always mentions 1901, but never the papers from 1956. In 1956 the surrounding area was pretty much as it is today. The huge Honor Oak Estate, housing 5,000 people, had been completed in 1937.

The local Borough Council at the time (not the same as Southwark Council which didn't exist then) announced that it was going to take some land, out of a 30 acre site it owned below One Tree Hill, to use as Camberwell New Cemetery, but they had done this without getting planning permission from London County Council. The Borough Councils was then required to put their proposals for the whole site to the LCC and these were also commented on by the Minister for Local Government. This is London County Council's Town Planning Ctte report from 16th Jan 1956:

"The Locality -- The locality is a residential one and the existing public open space standard is about 2.5 acres per thousand population. A considerable additional area, would, of course, be necessary in order to achieve a standard of four acres per thousand and the Borough Council's present proposals for playing fields may be welcome as contributing to recreational facilities in the vicinity." 19.19 acres were designated for tennis courts and playing fields, plus "2.41 acres for a public open space adjacent to Honor Oak Park as well as being joined to One Tree Hill, in accordance with the Minister's suggestions" and "3.16 acres for Temporary Allotment Gardens...pending eventual redevelopment as public open space". The amount of space allowed for the cemetery was just 2.87 acres.

The para headed "The Locality" also states: One Tree Hill affords extensive views across London and much of the New Cemetery land, which lies on the slopes of the hill, is in turn visible from nearby points, including particularly Blythe Hill Fields and Hilly Fields. It is a matter of considerable concern that the landscaping of the area should not be adversely affected by a more extensive area of white stone memorials reaching up to One Tree Hill and St Augustine's Church".

Modern London Government never intended this area to be taken out of public recreational use.

[PaperBagBadger]

Just so we're clear, Barrie Hargrove, Cabinet Member for Transport, Environment and Recycling, said on BBC London News on 22 Feb:

Quote "We've now reached the point where Southwark cemeteries are almost full and we need to consider different options, and one of the options is to reclaim the Recreation Ground."

Check out this and up to date coverage on:

friends of honor oak recreation ground blog

Where is this promised Southwark burial audit which surely must have details of reuse of older burial plots in all Southwark cemeteries? Presumably, this will be available to Council members attending the meeting to discuss 'consultation options for future service strategy for Southwark Cemeteries'?

Anyone know anything more about this meeting to be held at the end of March?

Southwark Council meeting

[languagelounger]

Hi Have you had any answer from Southwark as to why they are saying they need to take the Rec now, given the promises they gave only 10 years ago that they would not be seeking to ever take any more land.

They were already supposed to have carried out a burial audit in 1996, following which they stated in 1999/2000 that they would take another 3 acres of open space then, but that this in combination with other measures (reusing old land) would last for the next 50 years, at the end of which, the only option left would be to offer cremation. What has changed for them to go back on this promise?

Here are some quotes from the records: [quote=minutes of the Regeneration Committee held at Southwark Town Hall on 18 April 2000: " 7.4 An extension of the cemetery by three acres will allow for an estimated 900 grave plots per acre and therefore over three acres, 2700 plots. At a cost of ?1000 per interment, the additional three acres will yield ?2.7 million in income to the Council over a twenty-five year period." Do we know if they are now claiming that they in fact sold 2700 plots in 10 years instead of 25? And who has decided to reverse the earlier decision, and why?

[HonourBloke]

IN many ways I would rather see it as a cemetery. The at least it would be getting used.

[mockney piers]

The new cemetery of today is the romantic gothic beauty of tomorrow.

I love going to places like nunhead, new camberwell or west norwood cemetries for a walk, a a gawp, or good funky photo op. Give me that over puking at the side of the pitch after 15 minutes of 11-a-side (yeah, I could probably be fitter).

"There are many areas of re-usable areas" Noooo, they're the best bits!!!

[PaperBagBadger]

Friends of Honor Oak Rec need people to write to Barrie Hargrove and the other Southwark Cabinet members to tell them why the Rec is so important to them and the community.

There is a Southwark Cabinet meeting on 22 March where decisions will be made on burial options so please write now! We are promised consultation but so many believe that using the Rec for burial should not be one of those options.

Details of names and email addresses of Cabinet members on the blog:

http://honoroakparkrecreationground.blogspot.com/

[Growing Southwark]

Land is for the living??? they should look at reusing graves

They have stolen the park down at E&C we need more open community ground not less

[PaperBagBadger]

Friends of Honor Oak Rec need people to write to Barrie Hargrove and the other Southwark Cabinet members to tell them why the Rec is so important to them and the community.

There is a Southwark Cabinet meeting on 22 March where decisions will be made on burial options so please write now! We are promised consultation but so many believe that using the Rec for burial should not be one of those options.

Details of names and email addresses of Cabinet members on the blog:

friends of honor oak recreation ground

[Me! Me! Me!]

I know this 'pathetic plot' very well on account of my frequent visits passing through or by the area during my walks from Peckham via 'the three cemeteries' (Nunhead, Camberwell New and Brockley & Ladywell which takes in One Tree Hill and beyond through to Ladywell Fields.

I was gob-smacked that there was 'a friends group' existing for the now disputed Rec seeing as it is, to all intents and purposes, just a boring bit of grass space with no redeemable aesthetic features, (trees, flowers, planting, etc.) that anyone would care about except dog owners using the wide open green space as a daily toilet and grubbing-up ground. Oh! and that little corner called a "Children's Play Area" purposefully fenced off to keep those dangerous toddlers penned-in from attacking the public?

Whenever I have viewed that Rec I have noted few using it except "Rover" the rampaging retriever, "Tison" a Scary Pit-Bull and an ever-so irritating "FeFe" a yappy-slappy Chihuahua.

I am all in favour of our green spaces being 'saved' if there is something worth saving in terms of a properly managed green oasis. However, a dog romping ground-cum-mutt-toilet facility is hardly worth meowing about.

In any case, whether Rec or reclaimed burial ground Lewisham Council will allow, as it always has, full dog rights to pooches and any nondescript canine scruff a romp, play and poop plot in the reclaimed cemetery space that is planned to be clipped off a certain segment of the 'Bonzo Doo Da Dog Land's land. Otherwise, known as Honor Oak Recreation Ground.

(Woof! Woof!)

[Oggie]

Hummm... after reading Me Me Me's post (above) I went for a walk through HOP Recreation Ground and then on to Peckham Rye Park this morning. HOP Recreation Ground had 7 dog walkers & joggers (not sure who was what) first thing this morning. PRP which is a vastly bigger area had 10 dog walkers & joggers.Had a coffee and walked back and HOP Recreation Ground had 3 adults and 5 children in the children's play area and 1 dog walker.

So in response to Me Me Me, I would strongly refute that it is a "pathetic plot"that is hardly used. During the week all the parks are certainly quiet at certain periods but HOP Recreation Ground is consistently used by all the residents at different times.

Go on Saturday morning and it is packed with children's sports teams playing on the fields - in fact it is crowded to the point that I don't go there on weekends as it is too busy for me! Would these teams be able to play on PRP or Dulwich Park which are also crowded on the weekends? I doubt there is space for additional teams.

In response to the comment: "just a boring bit of grass space with no redeemable aesthetic features, (trees, flowers, planting, etc.)" the grass space is +2 football pitches so planting around those would be silly as nothing would survive. There are no flowers around the football fields in PRP for the same obvious reasons. The border with the new bit of cemetery was horribly denuded by Southwark council when they made that new bit of cemetery and hopefully they will eventually plant something along the borders. Perhaps they will do this once Network Rail finish all their works along the rail line.

So while Me Me Me doesn't appreciate HOP Recreation Ground most of the local community do!

[Me! Me! Me!]

I have been purposefully provocative. I, certainly, wouldn't want to see useful recreation grounds taken away. I still maintain such grounds tend to be devoid of aesthetics. Peripheral and in-between areas to a pitch, court or childrens' play area most certainly could be softened with planting. Saying bulbs are "silly" e.g. away on far boundaries of a sports field is saying a sports person or other user of that 'Rec' has no sense of that, or cares about that, kind of aesthetic. This is nonsense and insulting to the intelligence of shared users not just sporty types. Unless, of course, there's a determined local ownership to this particular 'Rec' which SE23 is claiming over and above the rest of Southwark which historically 'own' that plot as well as those of SE23. After all, Southwark tax payers as a whole pay for that facility.

[Me! Me! Me!]

Provocative as they purposefully are (to elicit debate, albeit, with a measure of tongue-in-cheek silly poking) my posts elsewhere on a ?Save HOP Recreation Ground!? via 'The community website for Forest Hill and Honor Oak, London SE23' sees me, now, utterly zapped off that site without any recourse to answer insults toward me like I?m a "Troll" or I do it ?just for kicks?. Clearly, different and/or contrary opinion is not welcome with them SE23?s while certain local dictators of the 'Save HOP burial plot/recreation ground campaign' don't want a debate...except so long as it's for a FOR their ?Save HOP [Recreation] ground?. (My brackets seeing as it's legally debatable as to who the ground belongs to whether to SE23 or the rest of Southwark which comprises all sorts of postcodes.)