Zippo Circus Peckham Rye

[Blah Blah]

Most horse injuries happen in Equestrian events and most injuries happen because the riders are beginners or inexperienced. As you can imagine, cross country eventing has all kinds of hazards, and it takes very little for a horse to stumble or fall if a rider does not know what they are doing. And I would absolutely agree with the link between suspensory ligament injuries and competitive sports - there is much to criticise there (because just like with humans, competing animals, that are repeatedly jumping and doing dressage, can suffer injuries that are everything from tears to repetitive strain). But this is very far removed from the canter of a horse in a circus ring, a non competitive scenario. Horses rarely suffer injury in circus use, especially circus use where there is no rearing on hind legs. And in fact, it is the rider who is most likely to suffer injury, not the horse. The evidence for all of this is overwhelming.

[hammerman]

I watched a documentary this week about how horses played a great part during the past and first world wars.

There was a clip about 5 friends who went into no mans land on their horses. Four of the horses were shot dead and so their riders were left stranded in no mans land.

The last remaining horse and his rider went into no mans land and carried them all back to safety. That's five adults on one horse hanging on to the saddle etc.

[binkylilyput]

Doing a quick google search to find an article that supports "opinion" does not make someone knowledgeable

The question is whether a business has the welfare of the animal as priority, not necessarily the business

Lots of positive reviews about Zippo

[Blah Blah]

Exactly that binky. No-one would deny that animal cruelty exists. Mostly it occurs at the hands of an individual, but mass meat production, can be seen as a system with cruelty designed into it. That is very different from what we are talking about here. I see nothing but happy and healthy horses at Zippos. They are not shut up in stables all day. They are well groomed and clearly well looked after.

[DulwichFox]

I have not suggested any deliberate acts of Cruelty by Zippo and the horses look fine.

Don't put your words into my mouth.

I just think with all the other brilliant acts animal acts are not needed. If Humans want to endanger their

lives, then that is fine.

DulwichFox

[Penguin68]

Numbers of domesticated animals form perfectly acceptable partnerships with humans - such as sheep dogs, huskies etc. The ones now showing in the circus belong to this group of animals, who have been (broadly) bred to work with us. It is not in the circus' best interests to work their animals to injury - the cost of their training is not worth it. And the animals they use are (now) 'designed' to work with us. This is very different from the wild animal shows of the past. Or the 'dancing' chicken acts (most animals will 'dance' if on a heated tin floor).

[XIX]

Blah Blah I'm somewhat intrigued by the absolute certainty you have about the way these animals are kept, and I quote: "The horses are well looked after and there is no harm to them or the budgies."

You have a pop at DF for his opinions not being evidence. But on what basis are you able to state the facts that you have above?

Surely not on the couple of minutes of seeing them cantering around inside the tent with you as a spectator????

As a self-professed horse person you will surely know very well that that is no basis on which to make a balanced assessment on the physical or mental health of an animal, or whether they are well looked after.

What do you know about how they are treated outside their performances in the circus tent?

And how do you not know that there are not other horses kept by Zippo who are in ill-health etc, who are not shown?

Peoples' questions on here about animal welfare are perfectly legitimate, given the multitude of well-documented cases of animal cruelty in circuses, so I'm interested to know why they can be discounted so quickly in this case.

And beyond all that, quite aside from the issue of whether the animals are well-looked after or subject to specific acts of cruelty or not, many might argue more broadly that a travelling circus is not a good environment for horses to be kept. It is quite different from being stabled in one place and having regular access to ample outside space etc etc. One would imagine they must spend a significant proportion of their lives in horse boxes and temporary stabling (can the quality of their accommodation ever match that of a dedicated, permanent stable?), with a lack of outside space for grazing and exercise etc etc. I for one am not convinced by the comparison with race horses - I don't think they are equivalent.

[edhistory]

XIX Wrote:

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> Blah Blah I'm somewhat intrigued [...]

Another opinion and belief post.

[DuncanW]

XIX - Some of Blah Blah's assertions may be based on being able to visit the horses' stabling area, which is open to the public.As for grazing and roaming, I understand their horses have access to the common.

As far as most people seem to see it, the horses and budgies at Zippo's are treated at least as well as other similar captive/domesticated animals would be.

I get that some people may be against keeping any animals in captivity, and I think that's a reasonable view for someone to hold. But it doesn't seem to pertain specifically to Zippo's, so maybe a more general Lounge thread on animal welfare in the UK would be a better place to discuss that.

[i*Rate]

Went to the show on Monday with my grandson - fantastic show!

Been twice before, but this was better than ever.

Good luck to Zippo's Circus; it just proves what talent and hard work can produce and how an 'old fashioned' form of entertainment can go on amazing people over generations.

[XIX]

DuncanW, ref your point about Blah Blah's assertions - still doesn't get round that he completely dismissed DF's views as opinion, having already equivocally stated as fact something that he was simply not in a position to. I was merely highlighting the hypocrisy.

As for your comment "As far as most people seem to see it....." - oh right, well as long as most people seem to see it that way, it must be fine then....... Not sure that's ever been a decent basis for establishing anything. Its not what is shown to, or goes on in public that's the issue, it's what happens out of public view that is (not just circuses, but abattoirs, farms etc etc).

Anyway, to be clear, I'm not saying I think the animals are mistreated at Zippos, I'm merely one of many people joining in this debate about the principles at hand, but will happily leave it here if people want to get back on subject.

[dimples]

A friend of mine was saying I the other night when we visited the circus and about the horses welfare that she had read that the Rspca were very happy indeed with the standard of care that the horses were in at zippos !

[dimples]

A friend of mine was saying to me the other night when we visited the circus and about the horses welfare that she had read that the Rspca were very happy indeed with the standard of care that the horses were in at zippos !

[Blah Blah]

XIX, as I mentioned, I am from a family that have always kept horses. I grew up on a farm. I know a lot about horses. There are many things you can tell about the welfare of a horse merely from the condition and gait of it. And yes, I have seen the horses up close on the Rye. I always take an interest where I see horses. This is no different to someone who has spent all their life around dogs having knowledge that a non dog owner would not have. DF's post was C&P of opinion - go read it again - there is no evidence or data there, just opinion. If you want me to dig up vetinary evidence of my points, I can quite easily do so. As someone has said, the horses are regularly inspected by bodies qualified to do so. A circus has to satisfy certain standards to keep its licence to trade, of which animal welfare is one standard.

The horses at Zippos, are left to graze most of the day, and are stabled at night, just like most horses anywhere are. They train and work for a small part of the day, also like any working horse, from Police horses to horses that pull funeral carriages. And cantering in a circle btw, is how all horses are trained. It is the simplest thing for a horse to learn. Zippos only travel in the Southeast with a few hours of travel on average once a week. Race horses travel more than that. Police horses travel more than that. And no, there is no difference to a horse between a travelling stable and a permanent stable block. Zipoos do not keep their horses in the travelling horsebox overnight. They build a temporary stable, and yes I have seen those too. The horses have more than adaquate space.

What I am trying to challenge is the idea that any use of horses in a circus is animal cruelty. DF's post projected that view. But it is not born out by fact.

[Blah Blah]

DulwichFox Wrote:

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> I have not suggested any deliberate acts of

> Cruelty by Zippo and the horses look fine.

>

> Don't put your words into my mouth.

>

> I just think with all the other brilliant acts

> animal acts are not needed. If Humans want to

> endanger their

> lives, then that is fine.

Then why post something that says this?

'We believe that the use of animals in circus performances is not only damaging to the welfare of those individuals involved....' if you acknowledge the horses at Zippos are fine and there is no damage to their welfare (or injury to them)? You can't have it both ways.

Zippos show that horses can be used and kept in a way that is not detrimental to their welfare clearly.

[zippo]

DulwichFox is clear that they have "not suggested any deliberate acts of Cruelty by Zippo and the horses look fine"

Thank you for that.

However DF thinks that with all the "other brilliant acts animal acts are not needed".

Horses are the corner stone upon which Zippos Circus is based, and without then there would be no "other brilliant acts", because horses are at the soul of Zippos Circus. It may be difficult to understand but its the presence of horses which allows the humans to excel. The horses are our raison d'etre. We love our way of life and could not imagine a circus life with the horses which we also love.