Decline of the Chillie pepper.

[Tarot]

My friend who is Indian and used to work in a restaurant back in the seventies was discussing chillies.and he reckons

that chillies were never used in curries until the eighties.

It became popular because Friday night drunks used to roll in and demand the hottest vindyloos they had and to sate that need they started adding chillies.

Also he said chillies were not grown in India or Scotland, so the scottish bonnet does not exist,and chillies came from south America.,

he also said less and less people are asking for chillies in his restaurant and pallettes are getting more refined.

[maxxi]

where to start... I ate hot curries in the 70s, chillis have been cultivated in India for 500 years, it's scotch bonnet not scottish and while that's a predominantly Carribean chilli India cultivates and uses more naga and birds eye chillis, a refined palette does not mean eating fewer chillis or those lower down the Scoville scale, and finally beware Indian friends on a wind-up.

[ianr]

In his Penguin Indian Cookery (1970), Dharamjit Singh does include red and green chilli peppers, fresh and dried, in his roundup of spices. And they do occur, pretty selectively, in individual recipes.

[Annette Curtain]

The Portuguese introduced chillies to Goa when it was a colony.

The "indian" dish Vindaloo is a bastardisation of vin (wine) and alho (garlic).

Birds eye chillies are from Africa & the Portuguse colonised a number of countries there. So, not such a great leap to see them taking the piri-piri (birds eye chillies) with them to Goa.

Nette

[Tarot]

So the origional peppers were from Chile then.

kas my friend? wants me to try a Dorset Naga,curry, not knowing what this is, and not a fan of chillies also

my other mate has ulcers ,would you think it would be ok to eat or is restraunter friend having a bubble.

[mockney piers]

Chilis do originate from the Americas and the European introduction coincides with that of tomatoes, potatoes, tobacco, syphilis and the rest of them.

Chile is just a homophone, it has nothing to do with the peppers.

I can't really comment in the history of the chili in curries as I only really discovered curry in the late 80s and became something of a chilihead shortly thereafter.

I would say that there has been a huge growth in fetishising chilis over the last 10 years or so though, i never really saw it as a cultural phenomenon in the way that it has become now.

The naga actually has a rich tomatoey flavour that can enhance a dish when used sparingly, but my tummy doesn't seem to tolerate them well anymore. Id recommend dorset naga avoidance, eating them falls into the macho fetishist culture side of things.

That said I did have a bit of an absurd habanero based chili sauce yesterday at a BBQ that weighed in at a very silly 750000 schovilles, and it was surprisingly nice, much nicer than the famed dragons blood which I can't tolerate any more either.

Does anyone know if the birds eye chili existed at all in Thailand before the sixteenth century as it's so integral to so many of their dishes now.

[Tarot]

Cor that was close, wont take the offer up now.

[mockney piers]

Can't beat a bit of chipotle in my book. It's like black pepper or salt it goes with just about everything.

[maxxi]

mockney piers Wrote:

---------------------------------------

> Does anyone know if the birds eye chili existed at

> all in Thailand before the sixteenth century as

> it's so integral to so many of their dishes now.

Don't think they existed anywhere outside of S. America until - as Nette said - the Spanish and Portugese introduced them to Asia although peppercorns were used to spice up food in Thailand up to that time.

Originally they were eaten by Portugese sailors on long voyages as a source of vitamin C (to prevent scurvy) before oranges were discovered to do the same thing, although this 'fact' comes from the same source that says

"All original sources of the chilli pepper can be traced back to one lone plant in Bolivia." which I don't know to be true but may well be (like the Bramley apple).

This has some interesting stuff on chillies - http://www.kew.org/plant-cultures/plants/chilli_pepper_history.html

-including this quote,

"In the 16th century the celebrated musician Purandarasa described chillies in lyrics as a comfort to the poor and the great flavour-enhancer." which sums it up really.

[mockney piers]

I imagine that they were probably used to help preserve the food rather than as anti scurvy tool else tens of thousands of sailors over the next three hundred years mightn't have died.

Actually if you've read Nathaniels Nutmeg there's a bit on there about how a British sailor made the connection between fresh fruit and scurvy, but they got shipwrecked and his notes on this got discovered about 400 years too late.

But I guess you're right about the Thai chili I was just wondering if their might have been some native strains in eastern Asia, washed up across the pacific or something, it's just hard to imagine their cuisine without it. I guess garlic lemongrass, lime leaf and pepper would have sufficed.

[civilservant]

I suspect that Tarot's friend is talking about restaurant practice in this country rather than true South Asian cooking, and as Nette points out, the key ingredient in a vindaloo is vinegar rather than chilli.

My Sri Lankan friends tell me that pepper (Sinhala - gam-miris or 'village chilli', Tamil - milagu) was the original heat source in South Asian cooking. At some point, it was supplemented by chilli (Sinhala - miris, Tamil - milagai or 'chilli fruit') and Sri Lankans use different combinations of pepper and chilli to create a variety of spicy flavours.

But I have no idea what South East Asians used, nor the Chinese (Szechuan cooking is searingly hot as well.)

A related question - how did the tomato, also introduced to Europe in the 16th century, become such an essential component of Italian cuisine?

[DonkyOne]

or Natasha

[Jeremy]

Potatoes also originated in South America, but they're just as much part of our national cuisine as chillies are to Indian food.

Perhaps Tarot's friend meant that whole chillies, or large pieces - rather than just in the paste/sauce - were first added in the 80s to satisfy the pissed up Brits.

[Annette Curtain]

Just what Borough market needs I think.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4b/PepperswithscovilleCentralMarketHoustonTX.JPG/800px-PepperswithscovilleCentralMarketHoustonTX.JPG

A heads paradise. I can't imagine where our food would be with out the chillie. Though It's not prevalent in some cultures

like Greece or Germany.

I've also been using a Mae Lay chillie which is red, dried and about finger length. They don't give much heat but they do add a smell & flavour which I like , the best way I can describe is the smell of "pipe tobacco" in a pouch. Slightly fruity and dense. They are cheap ( ?1.59p ) for a big bag at the Chinese shop on Camberwell green, I use about 3-4 in a curry along with 2 or 3 other chillie types.

( I'm fixating now on a veggie curry )

Lovely.

Nette(tu)

[paphio]

Hi, I just caught this thread because I have been trying to find somewhere to buy chipottle chilies somewhere round here. So if anyone of you does know I would be glad to find out.

in advance thank you.

[StraferJack]

dried chpotles can sometimes be found in SMBS

If you are after chipotles in a sauce (as commonly found in the US) then sometimes the mexcian food wagon "Buen Provencho" can be found selling them at occasional visits to the Rye pub

But I just order mine online from chilipepperpete - other online vendors exist

[mockney piers]

Just don't expect Pete to take responsibility if one of his sauces explodes scattering shards of glass around the room or anything.

A pity, because he does a rather fine dried chipotle, luckily I still have backlog to get through.

[PeckhamRose]

"I would say that there has been a huge growth in fetishising chilis over the last 10 years or so though, i never really saw it as a cultural phenomenon in the way that it has become now. "

Does that have anything to do with the infamous Simpsons episode?

[maxxi]

Flying Goose Sriracha Hot Chilli Sauce is my chosen condiment of heat right now (you can get it from Chinese shop in Camberwell), sweet, hot and unctuous.

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.chilliworld.com/i/p/16.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.chilliworld.com/SP6.asp%3Fp_id%3D16&usg=__90xq9smUY9rLybYEg4GOlc6gqx4=&h=300&w=200&sz=7&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=bxUNta0uqE5mwM:&tbnh=158&tbnw=105&ei=jMQVToz-OomIhQeW3_FX&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dflying%2Bgoose%2Bchili%2Bsauce%2Bimages%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26sa%3DX%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-GB:official%26channel%3Ds%26biw%3D1429%26bih%3D730%26site%3Dwebhp%26tbm%3Disch%26prmd%3Divns&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=427&vpy=105&dur=520&hovh=240&hovw=160&tx=91&ty=151&page=1&ndsp=27&ved=1t:429,r:2,s:0

[mockney piers]

Ah yes, one of my favourites. A staple in Viet-Anh Cafe in Camden. Mmmmm.

[paphio]

StraferJack Wrote:

Thanks for insight dude.

-------------------------------------------------------

> dried chpotles can sometimes be found in SMBS

>

> If you are after chipotles in a sauce (as commonly

> found in the US) then sometimes the mexcian food

> wagon "Buen Provencho" can be found selling them

> at occasional visits to the Rye pub

>

> But I just order mine online from chilipepperpete

> - other online vendors exist

[katie1997]

Anyone know where to get hold of dried kashmiri red chillies? SMBS say they occasionally stock them but I've never seen them in there.

[StraferJack]

I have bought some recently from SMBS - big bag down the bottom underneath the spices?

The Turkish shop (EAst Dulwich Supermarket - opposite the deli) often do them too

[Annette Curtain]

Anyone know where I can buy a sun dried "Ravi" with a 172mm radius ?

Nothing else will do.

NETTE(?)

[katie1997]

Yep, they do those in SMBS Nette, just along from the frozen smegma and goat's cheese ice cream.

Alternatively, try the shop on Camberwell Green.