StraferJack

I imagine KK was in the park because he was trying to excecise resonsibly - but he can observe that not enough people are doing likewise and concludes that we all need to be controlled or this won't work - him staying at home won't change the behaviour of others

Getting up the noses of [insert cliched and confected homogenous bunch) VS arrogant leadership discarding advice, help and evidence from other countries which will mean more people likely to die in this country compared to neighbours? it's a toughie for sure

"If we crash out with no deal these sorts of drugs join the long list of "important stuff we get from other countries" which will need new trade agreements to be in place before we can have more." Exactly. All of this can be managed with goodwill between EU and UK but the UK has pissed away a lot of goodwill, and talking about walking away, no deal is doing more damage

How will the medicines be transported to the UK? In special boxes marked "Nice EU approved medicines only - definitely nothing else that might be illegal in here" All goods coming in to the UK from EU wil be subject to more checks/transport disruption - that's part of controlling your borders isn't it?

Alex - a lot of that sounds sensible. And if it's where we landed I wouldn't be too upset. But it asks an awful lot of too many countries to, again, "Trust us", when it will probably simply lead to outrage from brexiteers and those countries wathcing us have another meltdown for several more months (which we don't have) John - sorry, I don't quite get the gist of what you are saying there. I think I agree with you and you are making same point as me?

"I?ve never looked into it but I don?t understand why there would be shortages of medicines. " Of course you haven't keano Medicines across the 28 EU states are licensed - everyone of those 28 member states has agreed to not change what's in them and because we are trade partners with license and agreements there is no need to keep checking UK leaves the EU and becomes a third party - it is no longer covered by license agreements (because THAT'S WHAT IT WANTS! SWEET SWEET FREEDOM!!!) No being covered means additional checks. Coupled with transportation disruptions, this leads to shortages. the EU aren't witholding or bullying anyone or anything UK might argue "well we won't change anything in medicines. trust us. No need to be uptight old chaps" But you will be trying to do a deal with USA remember? And they will want some of those medicines changed to fit with their different standards

Trinnydad you can say project fear all you like - that helps noone. And in the aftermath you simply going "whoops" isn't going to cut it. If "our" fears come to pass what will you do? You will blame someone and I think I know who (if we crash out and there is little disruption I will be relieved and happily hold my hands up but then I won't have harmed anyone) But is it project fear to say families who have lived here for decades have to pay hundreds of pounds to APPLY to stay here? Because that is reality. That is happening now. You think that's OK do you? As for your repeated claim of ?49b despite being told it wasn't that much, here is the breakdown. Only perspective you need is that walking away from it destroys your credibility as a country https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-divorce-bill/

"Well....you sound like a reasonable, rational chap, who's open to civilised discussion..... " As I pointed out - after 3 years of this nonsense, civilised discussion is wasted on people who still think this is a good idea - especially people willing to commit to no deal "Also...im guessing you're not familiar with the term 'analogy'..... " And you will be aware that I countered your (weak) analogy with another (still weak, but more accurate) analogy. Does you commuting the country to this make you feel better? How do you answer problems I raised? Medicine shortages - that's not a trip to the inlaws Families having to fine several hundred quid to APPLY (not register) but to APPLY to stay in the country, even if they have lived here for decades - not a trip to the inlaws Return of border in Ireland - not a trip to the inlaws

You didn't listen Jools There is no working agreement that people will agree on - it involves trade offs every which way and leavers can't define what would work Retainers point out what does work - the best possible position in EU membership with several opt outs EVerything else is LESS - and for no gain

Comparing being worse off in every way with a trip to the inlaws - Christ Medicine shortages - that's not a trip to the inlaws Families having to fine several hundred quid to APPLY (not register) but to APPLY to stay in the country, even if they have lived here for decades - not a trip to the inlaws Return of border in Ireland - not a trip to the inlaws on and on A trip to the inlaws? You are driving into a gang shoot-out and telling us to enjoy the ride All the while you vaccilate between "it will be great!!!" and telling us "stop whining, you don't get it" But when we get blown up in the car, will you take responsibility?? Of course you won't. You will blame us for breaking your concentration. The gang for shooting. But not your dumb-ass decision

do you mean I don't understand what sovereignty means? Because I do Or do you mean I don't understand why it's important when people say they are getting it back? I'm saying you have sovereignty within teh EU - just as the other EU countries do. you give up a little bit of it for the benefits of mutual cooperation. Just as you will with any future trade deals So saying you will get sovereignty back IS meaningless You will have LESS sovereignty (in any meaningful sense) after leaving the EU

Jools At 1 o clock today Trinnydad wrote " Walk away now because the EU will slowly fall apart in time anyway. The future for Euro is already looking very shakey with Italy and France's fiscal delinquency. 4 minutes later you posted simply: "I totally agree." and now you are saying "I don't think anyone wants no deal " What gives? as for your post "easy to criticise if you don't come up with an alternative" - you've nailed Brexit in a nutshell

If you think noone wants no deal, perhaps have a look at Question Time from last night the reason no Brexit will ever be doable is because noone can say what it IS. As soon as anyone tries (and by all means feel free to give your version) there will be other leavers who disagree with you. Because Leaving is not based on anything real

It's a toxic combination of arrogance, inability to grasp consequence, a belief in unicorns, stubbornness, inability to empathise with others and many more - and they have been indulged for far to long. There is no talking sense with them, absolutely nothing you can say to deflect them from the carnage Many leavers have changed their mind and if you listen to them speak they all have qualities completely absent from "no dealers" - they all have an ability to think, explain, balance, empathise No Dealers are just beyond hope

@ trinnydad and J&B Walking away with No Deal is, put simply, an ignorant position to take. You can only support No Deal if you lack the wit or the will to understand the consequences The ?49b (which is a number bandied around but it isn't that much) isn't on the table as part of any discussion - that is money owed. You may as well cancel your bank loan half way through and say you are not paying the rest. If you don't pay that money, you are signalling to all future trading partners that you are unreliable and untrustworthy The humiliation is entirely down to pigheaded attitudes like this. You ARE humiliated but not because of the EU - it's because you believe nonsense like this. The whole world is laughing at you - because you are this dumb. This arrogant. If you want to avoid that feeling of humiliation, then grow up and understand your place in the world. We are a small island, heavily reliant on services with the best deal of any trading partner in the EU, with several optouts You have no dignity - you only have a misplaced sense of pride. And pride comes before a fall If you walk away with no deal you are throwing peoples lives on the pyre of your vanity. A border in Ireland with all of the consequences that is likely to bring - you do remember what was achieved when we stopped with patrols on the border last time right? Government planning for stockpiles and military on the streets in event of No Deal - and you say "just walk away with No deal"? You don't get back sovereignty if you are destitute and reliant on Trump and China for deals. You will be over a barrel Staying in the EU prevents NOTHING that you want to do - the country has voted for austerity in 3 consecutive elections. That's your problem right there Not you, nor noone else, gets to say what "the brexit people voted for" is. Because the people who voted for Leave have very conflicting reasons for doing so - some voted for less integration but FOR single market. Some voted for left wing reasons. Some voted for right-wing reasons. And yes, be honest, many voted for xenophobic reasons. Nobody is ALL of those things "But calling people stupid won't change any minds" - you've had 2 and a half years to educate yourself on this issue - if you are still doubling down on walk away no, there is simply no chance of persuading you to do anything. The only game left is to see how few of you there are "But you are just as arrogant!" Maybe I am but remaining in the EU risks nothing - nobody is going to suffer because of it and we remain in a union which allows us the stability rebalance our own economy as we see fit. Whereas you are risking everything (not even risk at this point - chaos, civil unrest and poverty will happen if we crash out with no deal) for nebulous, meaningless concepts like pride, sovereignty. Just emotional words

But would paying 50% above 125k materially impact those people I?m at the low end of the 40% bracket. I would happily pay 50%. Because I think that?s what?s required of a country like ours (it clearly needs the income) But if lower earners need to pay more it does need the higher earners not to bail

Genuine question. Where would they go to?

If you genuinely think not much is going on in brexit land then I would suggest you haven?t been paying attention How many days left now? And tomorrow? Before we become a third country and all that entails The govt has published the first tranche of ?no deal? impact papers. Which all seem to be founded on the assistance of the eu to avoid Armageddon JRM has casually suggested people checks on Irish border because ?that worked in the troubles? That?s ?the troubles?. Not ?the everything?s grand sure? British haulage had meetings with Chris grayling which left them gobsmacked about how little he knows A million more things Oh and did I mention how few days are left before we are out? Be complacent if you like - most of England seems to be - but be assured. England is fucked and it?s taking the union down with it Labour will never lift a finger under Corbyn Tories might (too late?) realise the problem and ditch may with the idea of cancelling the whole thing - but maybe not No one is being honest with the electorate about the reality - so of course the electorate are shrugging and currently saying ?nothing to see here?. But that doesn?t let them off the hook. This is about sovereignty and they are underlining how meaningless that is unless people put in the graft

Ach. This is horrible on so many levels Creating and succeeding in a new life is something to be admired. To have that taken away so soon... Anne/buddug and I clashed on here many times. Almost exclusively clashed. Rarely if ever s meeting of minds. But something about her transcended forum pettiness. So I challenged her to meet up for a drink. And we did. And it was a long and memorable evening. Even now, how many years later? We didn?t meet and simper. We locked the same horns we did on the forum and we enjoyed it. We did bond over it. It reminded me of the forum?s early days where people who didn?t know each other would throw caution to the wind. Meet and be damned! I was thrilled when I learned what she did in a new life. I?m gutted at how prematurely that ended RIP Anne

Momentum will be unstoppable (no, not them) Minister phones to confirm to me that this is happening now: ?Certainly an odd look before major cabinet meeting.?

"no cavalry but calvary" very good

All of the consequences were spelled out before the referendum leavers have consistently ignored them. And when the impact is being felt now, the response is either "project fear (again!)" or the EU is being inflexible. It's not inflexible to point out the rules before you decide you want to ignore them. All the UK is trying to do is scam a new treaty. Everyone can see it, and there isn't a hope of it being allowed This whole thing is a mirage. And people will get very angry when they allow themselves to see that Many remainers are as guilty - "shrug what can you do. A referendum was held. Ah well. Let's hope for the best" A second referendum allows the people to reverse the result and own the outcome. I'm pretty confident a second ref would easily pass the 52% mark - and so are most leavers. if I was a confident Leaver I would welcome a second ref but they get quite upset about it Of course it is possible the people would endorse leave - unlikely but possible. If that happened well.... But there is no cavalry here. No saviour coming over the hills. not labour, not libdems. Noone If you think it's bad you have to be vocal and you have to demand a second referendum.

"Those who made this choice must now deliver the Brexit THEY promised; " and what was that brexit? You can't define it because it doesn't exist. There are too many competing versions of brexit for any of them to come to the fore and be accepted by the others Complaining about EU intransigence is pointless - it's a rule based organisation and it's simply applying the rules. It's this country (well,England basically) that is the problem - it can't agree on what kind of brexit it wants - even if EU allowed Uk to cherry pick and compromised in some areas, it wouldn't be enough for the headbangers The basic truth is this - the whole thing is a folly. And simply pointing to a 2 year old, dodgy, referendum and claiming it as some iron-clad "will of the people", in the face of such damage is plain insane Other countries have follow-up referendums and absolutely no reason same can't happen here. Any problems you might raise about holding a second refrendum are but a subset of the problems we will face anyway if we simply proceed

What does the ?ruling elite? gain from giving birth to something they know will destroy the country? British precedent alone says the ?elite? caved in/persuaded/misrepresented on Iraq (yep, the people wanted that. They won?t admit it now tho) What will the people say when it turns to shit? Unlike Iraq, this country doesn?t get to walk away https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/06/03/remembering-iraq/ I simply state: the country needs to ratify/reject a decision this big. Anything else is blind, arrogant folly

2 edits and that?s it? I?ll ask again. Why do other countries have a second referendum? Why is there no civil outcry there? So tell me. What is different about this country?? What???