Fun times at Dulwich Leisure Centre on Friday...

[redjam]

Topless ladies in pool shock protest!

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/topless-woman-male-only-swimming-pool-protest-gender-recognition-act-amy-desir-dulwich-south-london-a8261801.html

[tomskip]

Good for them! A huge issue that is passing so many people by.

[Nigello]

Surely it is best to not have any spaces that are other than shared - totally unisex at all times. That way, anyone can legitimately say "this space is for me and for everyone".

[tomskip]

I think the majority would still much prefer to have single sex toilets and changing rooms. Just as they prefer to have single sex hospital wards.

[sb]

.

[JohnL]

The Welsh National Pool had one huge changing room with lots of cubicles in it (mix of small, medium or family size) but you still have issues with the showering area (unless showers are next to the pool and costumes stay on) - but you could see they'd put some thought into it.

Always going to be specialist sessions for people who like being with "their own" though IMHO.

Brave going in the men's though to prove a point - as there's a type of man that likes to wander naked around with no towel in every men's changing room (hint: get a towel round you).

[Earl Aelfheah]

Genuine question - if a man wanted to dress as a woman just to gain access to a woman's changing room - what's to stop them doing it now? I mean it seems to me, that this is an extremely unlikely scenario and that someone with such malign motivations, isn't going to be helped or hindered by a change to gender recognition laws.

If someone is causing a nuisance in a changing room, they'll be chucked out regardless of the law around gender recognition, no?

[nina_maniana]

I would have thought with rape convictions as pathetically low as ever, ongoing gender pay gap and women murdered in acts of domestic violence every single day, the feminists would have bigger fish to fry than worrying which changing room people are going to use. Personally I don't imagine there are huge ranks of men queuing up to self identify as female given it's (out of the two options available) pretty much the crummier option. Good luck to em. Enjoy a lifetime of sexual harassment, getting overlooked in your career, comments about your weight and clothing choices from strangers etc, etc, etc.

[sb]

.

[tomskip]

Not to mention sport.

[paulu1973]

at the pool near my work (Cally Pool), there is only one changeroom but there are private cubicles to get changed in which are of sufficient size as well as family sized changerooms. At the same time what happens if you get a sick unit who says they identify as a female and go in the female changeroom - how can you prove that they don't. Let's just use biology for changerooms

[JohnL]

paulu1973 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> at the pool near my work (Cally Pool), there is

> only one changeroom but there are private cubicles

> to get changed in which are of sufficient size as

> well as family sized changerooms. At the same time

> what happens if you get a sick unit who says they

> identify as a female and go in the female

> changeroom - how can you prove that they don't.

> Let's just use biology for changerooms

Biology or Original Gender - The Female Activists (sometimes called TERF - might be seen as an insult - I don't know) want everybody to use the changing rooms of their original (DNA) gender - Conceivably then you get someone who looks very female (trans, post op) using male and vice versa.

I see 3 sets of changing rooms looming.

[JohnL]

Another article in the Standard - from the point of the Labour party.

https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/labour-s-next-civil-war-is-a-battle-over-what-it-means-to-be-a-woman-a3793541.html

[Earl Aelfheah]

@sb - how does a change in gender recognition laws increase the likelihood of a predatory man disguising himself as a woman in order to gain entry to a female changing room? This could happen now, although it is an incredibly unlikely scenario of course.

Anyone causing a nuisance in a changing room will be chucked out and I don't see what it's got to do with gender recognition laws.

Or is the problem trans women (or just 'women') being able to use a female changing room?

[Penguin68]

In many cases women who choose to use 'women only' facilities do so because they have had bad experiences with mixed facilities - or with men in general. There is a significant difference in many people's minds between those transexuals who have moved their entire life-styles into a role different from that they were born to or have the DNA for (outwith any alterations to their plumbing) and those 'choosing to identify' - perhaps not full-time - with a different sex. It is an unfortunate clash between 2 sets of freedoms. It is worthwhile however considering that, in sheer numbers, many more women have been the victims of male abuse than there are transexuals. If I had to legislate to protect the 'rights' of just one group it is the (far) larger group I would wish to protect. [Protecting one group does not in any way imply abusing or slighting another].

I am not happy with 'choosing to identify' men seeking to be on women only short-lists, either (although a post-op transexual is a much mooter point here].

[edcam]

Yep. No evidence at all of these "men who would dress as women in order to spy on/assault women in changing rooms". As you say, technically this is something which is possible now but it just doesn't happen.

rahrahrah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> @sb - how does a change in gender recognition laws

> increase the likelihood of a predatory man

> disguising himself as a woman in order to gain

> entry to a female changing room? This could happen

> now, although it is an incredibly unlikely

> scenario of course.

>

> Anyone causing a nuisance in a changing room will

> be chucked out and I don't see what it's got to do

> with gender recognition laws.

>

> Or is the problem trans women (or just 'women')

> being able to use a female changing room?

[sb]

.

[SpringTime]

As a straight man I don't really mind who I swim with though I think I'd rather avoid swimming solely with men... or indeed women. If I felt that strongly I suppose there's a women-only swim in Camberwell I could use as a protest venue. No trunks of course. I doubt I'd become fully aroused...

On a slightly more sober note if I complained about women-only swimming I'd probably be ignored at best.

[Penguin68]

I don't think the protesters are complaining about men-only swim sessions, just using these as a platform for making a point about 'self identification'. And a very successful one in publicity terms.

[JohnL]

Penguin68 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I don't think the protesters are complaining about

> men-only swim sessions, just using these as a

> platform for making a point about 'self

> identification'. And a very successful one in

> publicity terms.

There's a difference between a medically certified trans woman and a man who has decided to self identify as a woman. I recognise that but many people also recognise a spectrum of gender - gender fluid people seem to exist. Some people will say a woman can only be a woman if born a woman with XX chromosome.

So yes - a problem exists.

[SwearyGodmother]

We absolutely weren't complaining about men only swimming sessions, or about transpeople, but about how easily self ID could be abused. And I think we showed how ludicrous current positions on self ID are. This is something that hasn't been brought into law but is being brought in by many organisations and service providers at the expense of women's and transpeople's safety and dignity.

All I needed to say to access a men only space was to state "but I identify as a man". There was no process, no probing, just a blanket acceptance. This is probably in part due to Swim England's guidance that people should use the facilities they feel more appropriate to them but is also a shift towards gender being more important than sex in a very small, very vocal, part of society. I didn't have any untoward intentions in accessing the men's swimming session or changing area (unless you count showing up the ludicrous implications of self ID) but anyone who had more sinister intentions could have got into the opposite sex changing rooms without issue or challenge. Anyone who doesn't see this as a huge issue is being disingenuous. Predatory men have taken huge steps in the past in order to get close to potential victims - they have trained for the priesthood, become black cab drivers, become football coaches, teachers, school caretakers, run children's homes. Allsorts. By enshrining self ID in law we allow predatory men an easier route to their victims. If I don't know what a "woman" looks like anymore (as no physical or hormonal changes are necessary to be a legal woman) how would I be able to tell them from a predatory man in the changing rooms? Predatory men don't come with a badge! At present we have protections in place because we have same sex changing, loos, hospital wards, refuges etc and if someone who is not the same sex (and it can be read very easily by pretty much all humans) is in a place they ought not to be then we can take steps to have them removed, or recognise them and remove ourselves. This ability to keep ourselves safe is being taken away from us.

There is so much evidence of men taking advantage of relaxed gender identity laws, or gender neutral spaces, in other countries to abuse or spy on women. Target had an increase in incidents of voyeurism of more than 50% when they made their changing rooms gender neutral. A man in Canada identified as a transwoman to access a domestic violence refuge and raped two women. One woman being disadvantaged by these changes in law, and changes in practice is too many.

Self ID erodes women's rights. Women's rights that we've fought hard for, and need because of the overwhelming problem of male violence (and yes, I know, NAMALT). There is no need for anyone else's rights to impede another's so dialogue has to be had. I'm sure we can find a third space, or a middle ground but that wasn't possible before this weekend as we were told that there is no threat to women and there is #nodebate. We've started that debate, and we want a seat at the table when changes to laws that will affect women are discussed. That we need to petition for this in 2018 breaks my heart. We are fighting to be heard and to discuss, not shut anyone down or exclude anyone.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118

[tomskip]

Well said, Sweary.

As I said up thread, this is a really significant issue that not enough people have given serious thought to. I have signed all the petitions and read around the subject as much as I can. I am very worried. It is NOT just about predatory men "disguising" themselves as women and getting in to the female changing rooms for a few pervy moments of pleasure.

[Curmudgeon]

I applaud what you did. I think your petition is phrased badly though and as such I cannot sign it until I understand.

Why should only women be consulted?

[SwearyGodmother]

It?s not that only women should be consulted. It?s that we should be consulted too. A consultation was done already with trans pressure groups so theirs are the only voices that have been heard in Parliament on this matter. We want our seat at the table and our say too.

I know the issue goes far beyond changing rooms and voyeurism, but this has shone a light on self ID in a way we haven?t been able to before. To steal a quote from mumsnet - all it took was for two (wo)men to go swimming.

[Bagpipes]

The thing is, (biological) women currently have a host of rights based on their sex, not on their gender. So if the govt gets rid of the idea of sex (a biological reality) and replaces it with a feeling (gender) those sex based rights will be destroyed. It's an important issue, one that directly affects half the population and should concern us all.